EP05:
10’s 10’s 10’s: Part 2
Transcript EN
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Kate: So welcome back to Coming out of the Celluloid Closet. I'm Kate.
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Andrea: And I'm Andrea.
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Kate: So we left you last week with Beck and Maji from the ballroom community here in Copenhagen and we have the rest of the interview for this week's episode. If you haven't heard the previous week's episode go back and listen to that because this won't make a lot of sense. But if you're ready to hear the conclusion of our conversation with Maji and Beck, here it is.
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Kate: Before we get to the next section let's hear from our sponsors: Coming out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Checkpoint. At Checkpoint we offer testing and counseling for STI's for young people aged fifteen to twenty nine and LGBT+ persons of all ages. It's easy fast and free. Checkpoint is an alternative to your GP or hospital clinics and can be found in Denmark's largest cities. At Checkpoint we are inclusive and we work norm critically allowing us to focus on you and your needs. The link mitcheckpoint.dk/en is in English, allowing English-speaking folks a way to book a time for STI's. Again, that link is MITcheckpoint.dk/en.
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Kate: Coming out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Pan Idræt. Pan Idræt is a rainbow organization that focuses on creating a safe community through sports and activities. Many LGBTQ plus people have had negative experiences when playing sports whether due to exclusion, bullying or homophobic locker room talk. Pan Idræt seeks to right this wrong. All people, no matter, age, size, sexuality, gender identity and expression or skill level are welcome to join for more than twenty five sports and activities from traditional sports to social activities like board games. You are included! Check them all out at Panidræt.dk
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Kate: And that's actually a good segue to the elephant in the room, which is Paris is Burning, but I feel like we have to talk about it, 'cause yeah right.. so for those who may not know Paris is Burning is a 1990 documentary made by Jennie Livingston who was a Yale graduate, a white queer jewish woman, who moved to New York and then stumbled upon the ballroom scene as she tells it and then brought the cameras into the spaces and started sort of trying to pitch this documentary. And then she ended up getting funding from the National Endowment of the Arts and then ended up winning a Sundance prize, got a distribution from Miramax, like, it's problematic right? That the movie that pop culture sort of references all the time as this sort of quote unquote origins of ballroom was actually not that at all and you know in the past thirty years has been dialogued about how this was made for white audiences and now you see Pose coming out in 2018, a fiction series that takes heavily from Paris is Burning, poaches storylines from it, fictionalizes it and i'm just curious about your perspective on that. You know, how have you reacted to seeing and hearing about Paris is Burning. and yeah, what's your take?
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Maji: Seeing and hearing about Paris Is Burning? I think it's very different, for me at least because.. I mean, obviously Paris is Burning is super, super, super exploitative in, but it's saying it at the same time. It also like.. well, I mean it made it visible for some people and there are a lot of people that you know, but you can discuss that as well, 'cause like the whole take from the documentary, like the whole moral of the story is that everybody want to be white passing, you know, and that's bullshit. You know that's not what the scene is about, you know? But Pose for.. and I think it's it's very, it's very obvious that it was like from a white perspective. Pose, on the other hand, they have done a really, really good job having actual ballroom people featured not only featured, but consulting on the thing. And like choreographing and stuff like that and that also reflects i feel like. And the diversity of the cast is is really, really amazing and has like pushed a lot of stuff in like modern pop culture. So that's like I think, for me at least, like I really enjoy that and appreciate that.
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Beck: I mean, I think, the fact that Pose, like that you're saying, is taking so much inspiration from Paris is Burning.. I honestly, also think it's like a strategic move to get like more funding and you know, like let's make more seasons and stuff like that. And then the fact that it's - that all the balls are happening in the in the Marx Ballroom, which is where Paris is Burning, is also shot from that ball; Paris is Burning. I mean, it's also a place where a lot of balls were held back in in the 80s, so that also makes a lot of sense. But yeah, I also wanted to add, like with Pose I think the first season is much more from like kind of like a Paris is Burning white perspective, but it's also because Ryan Murphy is like the main producer of the show at this time and then he gives the torch on so Janet Mock on the next two seasons and you see the shift so much from like.. also it starts from being from like the gay man's perspective and then all of a sudden it's like oh it's all about the trans women the next two seasons like they are like the focus point...
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Beck: Yeah, I think it's much more real. I guess you could say like in season two especially, but I mean yeah, Paris is Burning I think it's some.. it's an ongoing discussion and I think also for a reason, because it's like - it was very expensive, it was like. She earned a shit ton of money on this movie and basically all of the people that she interviewed died really soon after because they didn't have health care and a lot of them had aids so. Which is just like insane to think about and she had promised them money, she didn't give them any, you know, there's all of this stuff that is just like. heart breaking and heart wrenching. But I also think we also have to remember that we're looking at it from our 2021 glasses and all of the discussions about representation and culture today are very different and not saying that that makes it OK, but just saying that I think like if I talked to people that were in the ballroom scene at that time, a lot of them are just like "yeah, it was fab, you know, like we, we got like we got a little bit of like fame and I saw myself and like on the big screen. I loved it" and then some other people are like "fuck her" and you know and like also try to go to - how do you say - to go to court? So I tried to like make a case against her and stuff like that so you know of course I mean it's not.. the ballroom community is not like one unity that all like entity that all things the same thing, and some people thought it was fab and some people thought it was not fab at all, you know so. Yeah.
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Kate: Really good to remember that 2021 is not the same as. 1990! Yeah, and then I also want to ask just about RuPaul. I'm just asking the annoying questions about pop culture because like as mainstream audiences, we think like "oh, death drop", right? But no, no, no, no, no no. Maji literally just like cringed her entire body.
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All: *Laughing*
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Kate: Yeah, and having had however many seasons of Drag Race like I don't even know, there is still so much like vernacular and language that comes directly from the ballroom scene that is sort of thrown out as like the drag culture owns that and that, like RuPaul, owns that, and like he creates all these challenges where, like you know, there's the reading challenge and all this stuff...
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Beck: And Michelle Visage used to be in the House of Ninja actually
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Maji: and Magnifique
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Beck: and Magnifique! Sorry.
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Kate: Yeah, no. I mean it's it's all these good tidbits to remember. Like from my perspective, it just feels like a diluting of the entire culture, but some people have argued in media that like any representation is good representation. So yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts about that.
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Andrea: And I guess like, maybe kind of want to piggy ride on the question and say; but is that the point? Like is the ballroom scene trying to bring its language and its culture to people outside of ballroom?
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Maji: No. No..
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Beck: Depending on the person...
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Maji: OK, yeah, OK. Depending on the person. Yeah, i mean.. I don't know I just I feel like.. and RuPaul's Drag Race is fun, but like it also kind of, i don't know how to put it. It just it - it definitely appropriates so much and claims stuff that it doesn't like doesn't really know. And as like throughout this interview you've probably understood that ballroom has such a huge legacy and such a rich history as well. And so every time you carry it into a space, you kind of have to do it with the knowledge and respect of the history and the people who like actually use this as like a fight and a protest to create this space that's so sacred and needed for so many people and then when RuPaul's Drag Race, goes in and like normalizes appropriating behavior, it kind of undermines the whole legacy of it all. Ballroom is super proud and super like you know and - the result of it actually just is like a lot of pride-flag-wearing white gays coming out, like this one type of how to be gay or like how to be queer, comes out and claims the word death-drop and starts also showing up to functions and like storming the Vogue Femme category, making a damn fool of themselves you know and getting chopped repeatedly, but then goes "Fuck you! This is my space!" you know? And it's like and you're like who are you? Tell me, don't you know? What do you like?
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Beck: They don't know.
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Maji: They don't know 'cause they think it's OK 'cause they watch RuPaul you know what I mean?
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Andrea: But have you seen.. OK, first of all, I think I know more out of not only like RuPaul but like you know, programming for a queer Film Festival like. I know you Maji like I think I know more than the average consumer, but I am pretty sure that a couple years ago if I had only watched RuPaul I would have told you the following: that drag - the drag scene, voguing and ballroom were the same thing. Yeah i swear to you, I would have told you this on God. But they're not! And have you then seen that because of RuPaul's popularity that this has increased, that some rando just comes in and wants to walk a category without any sort of regard...
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Andrea: It's the entitlement to it i think that kind of is problematic is that yeah, absolutely, I mean yeah.
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Beck: It's a whole thing on TikTok now as well, so I mean it's like Oh my God voguing. And then they really do not know how to vogue!
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Maji: "I'm so into vogueing right now!"
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Beck: And it's like they're doing tutorials and this is really off.
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Beck: But anyways, but I mean...
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Maji: Oh right, we have the tutorials too! It's just misinformation.
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Beck: Yes.
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Maji: And there are various dance classes out in like the outskirts of who? like you know, I don't even know. That teaches vogue. And I don't know what they're you know, you don't know what they're doing, they're just they think that "OK, I am a gay male so I can teach this", you know what I mean? And...
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Beck: I think it's anyone. I mean, there's a lot of cis het.
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Maji: Yeah, I'm not actually trying to like.. yeah, there are a lot of girls as well but I'm just saying that that's like the RuPaul's Drag Race like main audience
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Beck: But the girls are also the main audience for RuPaul's Drag Race.
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Maji: Yeah, that's actually true.
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Andrea: So we're talking cis gay men, cis straight girls?
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Beck: Yeah a lot of that going.
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Maji: Yeah, a lot of that.
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Beck: Yeah but I want to, just wanted to add like why I'm saying like some people wanted to go into the mainstream. I think like my reasoning for saying that is like a lot of people need work, a lot of people in the ballroom community are amazing performers and amazing designers, amazing makeup artists etc etc etc and they need work and the ballroom scene can be like, kind of like a step to making it in the industry. The issue is that it's the wrong people getting the work right. So like a lot of people wanted to go into the mainstream so they can get work but then the mainstream they don't care, they don't care if it's a dip or death drop, they don't care, you know, if his people from the actual ballroom scene or if it's quote unquote, just a drag queen, so like that's the issue there. The issue is that the mainstream don't care, right? And like, I remember seeing stuff that were like really not vogue when I first started but thinking it was vogue and thinking he was fab! Because it looks like if you're like super expressive and you're like super fast and you're super feminine and you're super queer in your expression is just like "wow! This is amazing" 'cause you live in like a boring like gray or like, I lived in a boring gray like heterosexual cis world, you know and then it's like "YAAAAAY!"
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Maji: "Something!"
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Beck: Yeah exactly!
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Andrea: "I don't know what it is, but it's something!"
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Maji: "Something!", Yeah.
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Beck: "I also want to lay on the floor like a dead fish!"... Sorry.
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Andrea: But you have seen sort of like a surge of people coming in that - because when you were telling us your origin stories at the beginning of this interview it sounded very much like.. you've also used the word, Beck you've used the word, is like a "guest" as a white person, coming in as a guest. You went to watch some - like it was a very sort of slow process of getting to know what is ballroom? What is the scene? Who are these people? And then what you're describing in terms of the question of it becoming more mainstream with RuPaul it sounds like instead of doing that process, someone just comes in, knows no one and just...
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Maji: I think both of us had like entries to ballroom that were before everything became very mainstream or just before Drag Race before.. which was, I mean, I feel very lucky that I started before all of that.
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Beck: But I mean, I also had an introduction to ballroom that was not real. I mean, as I was saying, the Street Star and all of that. So I mean, I thought I knew what it was until like X amount of years later I went to New York, was like, oh OK, you know so, even though it wasn't in the mainstream and it wasn't on TikTok. Thank God I was not on TikTok back then that would have been terrible, but you know, so I feel like, I mean, it's I think it's quite normal that a lot of us has an introduction to the ballroom scene that is like coming from somewhere else. And then we find our way into what is actually the ballroom scene. And of course.. and especially if you grow up in a country where it's not like kind of embedded in the culture, you know. So it's it's very different growing up in New York than it is growing up in Copenhagen.
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Kate: Yeah, I actually want to ask specifically about seeing yourself represented in the scene, either through pop culture or just like coming into the community and again through pop culture - the lens of pop culture - you kind of see, you know cis people and trans women and people of color represented a lot, but I'm actually curious specifically about trans men and why that isn't as represented a lot. Or is it just invisible, right? Yeah, I'm just curious about why.
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Beck: Yeah, why is that? I don't know. I really don't know, but I mean the in the whole scene, we're also not super represented like compared to trans women for instance. The scene was started by trans women and then kind of like came in the gay men via that, and the trans men and like and the lesbian communities in the scene, it came a little later. There was in the beginning of the 2000's, there was a scene started in New York that was the women butch trans scene and it doesn't exist anymore sadly but it was.. like some of the people that are my mentors they came from that scene. And I mean, one of the things that, especially in Europe, it's like one of the things that is making it so that the trans men of the scene are not also not super visible is that we only have Trans Man Realness as a category specifically for us whereas in for instance the midwest in the U.S. there are Trans Man Sex Siren, there's Trans Man Performance, there is Trans Man Face etc etc etc and...
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Andrea: In the midwest of the U.S.? What a world we live in, what a world we live in.
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Beck: And like, for some reason, it's like very centered right there.
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Maji: So interesting...
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Beck: I love it. And then, I mean, I know a lot of trans men in the scene that don't walk Realness, but people don't know that they're trans because they just walk Performance or whatever, something like that, you know. So, I think that we really have to fight way more for the representation of trans masculine and also lesbian - the lesbian community in the scene. And I think the whole like pop cultural reference to trans women versus trans men, i think.. i don't know what it is. Maybe it's just 'cause we're not as fab i don't know.
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Andrea: Not true.
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Beck: But we're fab in a very different way you know, like yeah.
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Maji: Yeah, I mean. But you actually, I mean, for the lesbians of the scene, you created an entire category Beck.
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Beck: Not only me...
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Maji: OK, not only you, but you helped!
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Beck: I helped create a category
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Maji: VERY fab category.
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Beck: Together with the legendary Charlie Ebony just wanted to add that 'cause I think that's important.
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Maji: Very important.
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Beck: Yeah, well so the category is Sister Realness, so basically because in real and as we have Trans Man Realness, Femme Queen Realness, which Femme Queen is the word for trans woman in the scene and then you have Butch Queen Realness which is a gay man that passes as a straight man. And we don't have the.. we didn't have the equivalent for a lesbian that passes as a straight woman, and it was actually one of the things that like we talked about me and Maji, we were like.. 'cause maji was like," well, I feel like the ballroom scene is like not a dating pool for me" and I was like "we should change that because we need to know who's the dykes of this scene."
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Kate: Matchmaking!
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Andrea: Oh wow, collaboration.
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Maji: So that has been very hot and has changed the game a little bit. I mean, it's only been.. how many balls have had Sister Reallness?
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Beck: Not, a l.. I think like..
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Maji: We had it at my ball, A Bad Bitch, Kiki ball and your ball.
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Beck: In Paris we had - they had it for a few balls also. Ever since, yeah. And then I mean, and then the pandemic happened.
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Maji: Yeah, it put a pause on the whole thing.
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Andrea: How do you create a category? How does that happen?
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Maji: At a Kiki ball usually. It kinda has to be popular at a Kiki balll in order to be accepted in a major function, so Kiki balls can have some really creative categories, I mean. And I think that Shake That Ass actually got, that's an example of like a category that started at the Kiki balls and then gained so much popularity that now you can see it at the major balls.
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Andrea: We don't have that much time left, and before we go I would really, really, really like if you could tell us more about how you were part of.. you pioneered the ballroom scene in Denmark. You started saying that at the beginning - and you also Maji, you talked about how do we include? How do we make sure we include the communities that need it? I have personally gone to a vogueing class with you that was only for QTIBIPOC's, for those that don't know, that stands for Queer, Trans Black Indigenous People Of Color. Where it was exclusive for QTIBIPOC's. So if you could just maybe tell us like how did it happen? When did it happen? How do you know each other from? How do you know each other period.
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Maji: We know each other from dancing and then I.. Beck at one point started teaching little sessions and I was like fab, I didn't know what the fuck vogueing was. And then I just came there and had a cute time but that was way before it even started to get into it, you know.
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Beck: Yeah, I mean yeah, I started teaching people that.. I was teaching vogue at like dance educations, both in Copenhagen and Paris and then like the people that I saw from Copenhagen that had like a flare or interest for it I invited to like kind of private classes, private sessions and then I don't know if like that's - that's not necessarily only where we all got to know each other but like also through there we got like a stronger bond and it was - and then I think when was it, in 2016? We started Disturbing Business.
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Maji: And that's after we had all been or we were still like a little group of people that had been traveling and like encountered ballroom and kind of like were all in the scene or beginning to be in the scene. And then we all came home and we were like we need somebody to train with and then we all like got together in a studio and started training and we were like we should start something. And then we were like "let's just call it Disturbing Business" and it became like a performance collective but also just like a kick-start of a community. I mean, I think we set out to start a ballroom scene and now we closed...
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Beck: And now we close it because there's a ballroom scene. I mean it was like, well, there's not really a reason for the for Disturbing Business anymore. And everybody in the House, whatever, in Disturbing Business, not a House
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Andrea: In the collective.
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Beck: Yeah, what I want to say is that we all went to different houses. So it's like, yeah? Yeah, there was not really a reason for us to be there anymore. Yeah, so I mean it's been a lot through sessioning session sessions sessions sessions
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Maji: Yeah, posting open sessions and trying to tell people "hey, you look like you could use an open session" you know, cause it's like, you can't really - I mean we can write it on Instagram, but then I mean, how do you get the right people there and the first couple of times nobody was there, you know.
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Beck: And now it has gotten so big that we can actually target it more to specific people like and have sessions that are separatists, for instance, this sessions that you were having and or like I just started right like this week. Started having trans nonbinary sessions, so it's only for trans people or nonbinary people, so I mean, because we are trying to target it to more specific people because there's a lot of people that feel like being fab, and that's great. But like, we also want the right people to be fab you know?
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Maji: It's also so important to say on this platform as well, 'cause you know, like what platform is good. But this is a good platform. So we host the sessions and if you have the interest hit us up!
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Andrea: Yes, but I think that's a great finisher; for listeners are interested in knowing more about your work. Knowing more about ballroom, you know, say that there is a scene. What do they do? Where do they go?
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Beck: They come to sessions.
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Maji: They come to sessions.
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Beck: And Is free even! Yeah
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Andrea: Oh my God, go to free sessions!
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Beck: Hello!?
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Andrea: Maji is the.. I can testify, this will be a Yelp review on our podcast; Maji is amazing to teach you how to duck walk. I could not do it. 2 seconds and I was like, oh my God...
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Maji: Then I'm not that amazing, am I? Oh oK.
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Kate: Yeah no, I couldn't do it before. People were teaching me and I was like my body is not made for this. And then you were like you just do this and I'm like oh my god look at me!
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Maji: Look at you!
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Andrea: Like a little duck. So cute.
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Kate: Yeah, is there anything you would like to close with whether you'd like to plug what you're working on for example? We actually haven't even read out your resumes which are super impressive, so. We have them here, so Maji you've danced for music artists such as Christine and the Queens, Robyn and Infernal. You were also involved in Stine Goya's fashion campaign and you've taught dance lessons at Gaardbo Dance, Base Dance in London and the Art Academy, and you are also starring in the documentary Dans(k) by Sarah Jordans. Is that right? So that's awesome. Is there anything you'd like to add to what you're working on now and what you can plug and then we'll do the same thing for Beck.
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Maji: What the fuck am I working on..?
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Andrea: You have some sessions coming up.
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Maji: Oh yeah, there's some yeah, I mean they're not, there's like one spot left I think. But I will be hosting intensive training sessions. And yeah, hopefully some like ballroom or ballroom stuff. Yeah, I'm not really doing much but hit me up if you want to learn something.
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Kate: So and then Beck I just like to read your resume. Dancer, presenter, choreographer educated in Copenhagen and Paris. As you mentioned you choreographed your debut at in New York at the critically acclaimed festival FLIC fest and later on also choreographed for In Situ - is that right In Situ Dance Festival and then when you moved back to Copenhagen you started your own dance company and your latest works include the performance installation 'Digging a Glittery Grave' which has its premiere in the fall and 'Jeg er Silas' which is nominated for Denmark 's biggest stage performance award so congratulations.
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Beck: Thank you.
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Kate: Anything else you'd like to add or plug?
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Kate: Yeah, well tomorrow I'm starting rehearsals at the Royal Theatre for a production called Pride where I'm on stage. It's instructed by Falk Richter which is an amazing instructor from Germany and is premiering during World Pride in the end of August.
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Kate: Amazing.
[00:31:38:24 - 00:31:42:08]
Andrea: Thank you so much. This was awesome. Thank you so much
[00:31:42:20 - 00:31:43:11]
Kate: Really appreciate it.
[00:31:47:06 - 00:31:51:04]
Kate: Thank you so much to Maji Miyaki Mugler and Beck 007 for being our guests today.
[00:31:52:23 - 00:32:16:12]
Kate: This episode of MIX Copenhagen 's Coming out of the Celluloid Closet podcast was presented by Andrea Coloma and Kate Krosschell. It was researched by Michael Trahan and produced with help from Ben Hanson-Hicks. Mixing and editing by Winther Robinson. Don't forget to like and follow Coming out of the Celluloid Closet on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We are releasing new episodes every week throughout the autumn.