EP04:
10’s 10’s 10’s: Part 1
Transcript EN
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Kate: Welcome back to Coming out of the Celluloid Closet. I'm Kate Krosschell.
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Andrea: My name is Andrea Coloma.
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Kate: And today we're talking about ballroom.
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Andrea: We're going to dive into the ballroom scene. How it has been portrayed earlier and how it is portrayed today through different media.
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Kate: In this episode we are looking at the ultimate classic Paris Is Burning and also taking a look at the more current representations of ballroom such as Pose and Legendary.
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Andrea: We also have an interview as per usual, the interview guests for this episode will be Maji Claire and Beck Heiberg, who are the pioneers of the Danish ballroom scene.
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Kate: Hey Andrea, how are you?
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Andrea: I'm good, thank you. I'm excited to talk ballroom and become smarter.
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Kate: Me too, and I've just had a crash course in all things pop culture and ballroom. Watched Legendary, watched Pose, watched Paris Is Burning again just to catch up.
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Andrea: And do you think that you're like ready, like do you think that you know you have like an overview of what ballroom is?
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Kate: I think we should just start with the basics again. Let's just say to each other what our perception of ballroom is now from being outside of the ballroom community.
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Andrea: I think for me is really hard, but I can tell you that 5, yeah let's say five years ago, my perception of ballroom was probably that like drag culture, voguing, and ballroom were the same thing however, because there has been like some balls that are popping up here in Denmark. I've been able to see that it's different, and I think Paris Is Burning does do like an introductory job, but I still don't know specifically. I think I have a random idea but I don't know specifically. Like is a House of physical house? It's probably not a physical house. But you know what I mean?
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Kate: Yeah totally and so we'll definitely ask Beck Heiberg and Maji Claire our two guests for this episode, about all of that. But just to for a quick sort of two minute history: ballroom culture and this is just very elementary -so ballroom culture started in the nineteen sixties in New York City as a response to the white-dominated drag balls at the time where black and brown queers were discriminated against.
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Kate: Crystal LaBeija, an African-American trans woman, she was a founder and you can see this actually in the 1968 documentary The Queen which is about the response to those white balls, those drag balls.
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Andrea: Yeah doesn't she walk out and have this awesome speech?
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Kate: Yeah, yeah highly recommended to see this documentary.
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Andrea: I'm actually really excited to get Beck and Maji in soon so we can dive even deeper into those categories. Especially do we use the same language in Europe? Do we use the same language and Denmark and versus Paris? So I'm excited for that but I think the reason why obviously people don't know about ballroom. It's because we're not part of the culture that makes sense, but I also like. I'm kind of racking my brain to see any contemporary examples that are not shows or reality TV shows, but like contemporary examples of like documentaries or of films and the one that we always have to fall back on its Paris Is Burning. it just is and that film is surrounded by controversy, so I don't know if that's because that's the reason why another one hasn't been made. But maybe let's talk a little bit about the controversy around Paris Is Burning. it's directed by Jennie Livingston, who is a white queer woman I believe right? A white queer woman, went to Yale. She got funding from the National Endowment for the Arts, won a prize at Sundance with the film and got distribution from Miramax.
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Andrea: She is a ballroom outsider and there are arguments that her privilege was part of the reason why, if not a huge part of the reason why she was allowed to get funding to make that film. And if people don't know a lot of the people in the film, some of them were promised money, but most of them died because of HIV AIDS related conditions. And they didn't have access to healthcare because most of the people in Paris Is Burning, the people that pioneered this culture are poor working class sex workers, queer and trans people, Black and racialized Latinx. Do you think that these questions of exploitation or gentrification of ballroom, do you think that that's a reason why, maybe, the ballroom scene is protecting itself a little bit more and not letting outsiders come in and make films?
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Kate: Yeah, it could definitely be. I would love to ask Maji and Beck about that just to see what their thoughts are because they are two of the major founders of the Danish ballroom scene and they've both been in new york and are actually members of iconic houses so they're going to definitely have some really awesome things to say about it about that yeah but there's definitely controversy around that documentary and what's also interesting is that the documentary was made or came out in 1990 but Jennie Livingston actually spent six years making it and she brought cameras into the balls sort of piece meal and then brought the footage to some of the producers as sort of like, an evidence of this is something that I want to make in order to get more and more funding and that's why the like the producing process was drawn out but like some of the funding money that she ended up getting from that distribution deal she promised to go to some of the performers in the documentary but it was only like fifty five thousand dollars out of the huge lucrative deal that she ended up getting and all of the sort of history of that film is is just like mired in that sort of like tainted money question and representation and exploitation yeah yeah, so it's not great. And then there's things like RuPaul's Drag Race, right? So that's also a huge cultural representation of sort of like, yeah, I don't even -- it's not ballroom. It's really not. But it takes so much from ballroom, especially the vernacular, the language that use, you know, reading, shade, throwing shade, realness all comes from ballroom.
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Andrea: And the fact that they walked categories, as well. Drag Queens and I mean drag - not that I'm an expert either and we don't have any drag Queens or drag performers that are coming in? but in many ways I do know more about drag culture than I do about ballroom culture, and that's a drag performer, that's someone that's dancing, someone that's singing, whereas in RuPaul they walk and they have different categories to walk and they have to create their own outfits and have to do their own makeup, which is very much a ballroom scene as I learned from Pose, by the way. Post and Paris Is Burning I think are the ones that sort of introduced me to what ballroom really was.
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Andrea: And if we take Pose really quickly, even though it's not a film. You mentioned when we were preparing for this episode, you mentioned, which is true. It takes everything from Paris Is Burning, but specifically your analysis, which was really great, Kate, was that they take some of the plots in Paris Is Burning and fictionalize it.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Andrea: Which I think is a statement and I love the fact that. It, even though it's not a film. It's obviously not a secret that in this podcast we love films, so even though it's on a film, I do love that there is a fictionalization of ballroom culture with the people that made it.
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Kate: Yes, and that's a very good point too, that actually a lot of people in the ballroom culture are consultants, and even actors in Pose, so they've been included in the production process and are stars, so that's great, but let's ask Maji Claire and Beck Heiberg about this.
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Andrea: Yeah, I don't think we need to talk more about it. 'cause I'm pretty sure that this interview is going to be bomb and we don't want to edit it out, so. Let's talk to them.
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Speaker 2: Before we get to the next section let's hear from our sponsors. Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Checkpoint. At Checkpoint we offer testing and counseling for STI 's for young people aged fifteen to twenty nine and LGBT+ persons of all ages. It's easy, fast and free. Checkpoint is an alternative to your GP or hospital clinics and can be found in Denmark 's largest cities. At Checkpoint we are inclusive and we work norm-critically, allowing us to focus on you and your needs. The link mitcheckpoint.dk/en is in English, allowing English-speaking folks the way to book a time for STI 's. Again that link is MITcheckpoint.dk/en. Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Pan Idræt. Pan Idræt Is a Rainbow organization that focuses on creating a safe community through sports and activities. Many LGBTQ+ people have had negative experiences when playing sports whether due to exclusion, bullying or homophobic locker room talk. Pan Idræt seeks to right this wrong. All people no matter age, size, sexuality, gender identity and expression, or skill level are welcome to join for more than twenty five sports and activities from traditional sports to social activities like board games. You are included. Check them all out at PanIdræt.dk.
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Andrea: Let's start by introducing yourselves. Maji?
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Maji: Yeah my name is Maji Miyaki-Mugler. i am from the Iconic House of Miyaki-Mugler, which has existed since '89, and was founded by a whole lot of people in New York. And I walk Sex Siren mainly, but I also occasionally walk vogue femme. Yeah, and I am the European Princess of Seduction still ruling, still reigning, since there has have not been an awards ball for a couple of years so I'm just milking that.
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Andrea: Why not? Yeah.
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Kate: Can you say your pronouns also?
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Maji: She/her.
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Andrea: What about you, Beck? Do you have a little introduction for us and our audience?
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Beck: Sure, my name is Beck, as of right now 007. I used to be in the Iconic House of Ninja, which is a house that was funded in 1982 by Willi Ninja and sandy Apollonia Ninja, but right now i'm 007 and which means I don't have any house affiliation.
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Andrea: Like all the danish politicians that are leaving their parties, but in ballroom.
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Maji: Double oh's.
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Speaker 2: Wow.
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Beck: I don't feel like being in the same boat as them, but OK.
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Andrea: That's fair, I take it back, I apologize.
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Beck: The categories I walk is Old Way and Realness mainly, and yeah both me and Maji has been part of starting the Danish ballroom scene, yeah? I'm the old bitch in this country.
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Maji: We're the pioneers.
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Kate: Oh my gosh.
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Maji: I mean - aren't we?S
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Beck: Sure.
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Andrea: The humility is beautiful. But I think so you've told us a little about your houses. You told us a little bit about what categories you walk, but maybe let's bring it back to the basics. You are talking to my grandmother, she's eighty seven. What is ballroom?
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Maji: Oh yeah.
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Beck: You want me to take it? Ok, so ballroom is - yeah, so ballroom is - basically it's a community for LGBTQ people of color, mainly. It was started in the late 60s in Harlem, New York. The first house that was created, it was created by somebody called Crystal LaBeija. And it was started as like how do you say protest? Yeah to the white drag community and their competitions being very racist. So yeah, it's a community where you are in houses, which means that you're in small families. And you compete at balls in various different categories in performance, fashion, realness, beauty categories, and there's many, many, many, many of them. Is that the crash course?
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Maji: I think so yeah.
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Beck: Great.
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Andrea: When you say that you walk certain categories, could you maybe explain what the categories are and why is it like you found your niche and you're just like, you're good at those, and that's what you do. How do you find what category you walk and the one that you like to walk? I mean, it's just trial and error, I think. Mostly just like what are you attracted to and what like makes you like wanna, what makes you feel inspired, I guess. Sex Siren was actually the first category I walked at my first ball I walked, but I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know what the category actually like, was about. Do you want me to explain about what what Sex Siren actually is? Sex siren is about seducing the entire room.
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Speaker 2: She says as she grabs her braids yeah.
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Maji: Yeah Sex Siren is about yeah kind of like capturing everybody 's attention and like controlling and demanding everybody to desire you no matter what what preferences they normally have sexually.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just about seduction and so you, you compete against other Sex Sirens. And sometimes it can be - I walk Female Figure Sex Siren. there's also a Male Figure Sex Siren, and then there's sometimes also Lion Babe and Cat Boy Sex Siren. And the Female Figure Sex Siren is for people who are female presenting. And the Male Figure Sex Siren is for males like or people that are male presenting. And that's usually just in ballroom, you know, like how they usually have the categories divided into like what your gender expression is and lion babe is a butch presenting femme is that, could you say it? like that?
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Beck: Androgynous woman or like is kind of like having a masculine expression. But it could also be that you're nonbinary person with a masculine expression, so yeah.
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Maji: Yeah, and and the other way around, Cat Boy is like a feminine presenting boy. So I walk Female Figure Sex Siren, but sometimes you can also compete against people who walk like in different - it depends on the size of the ball, of course.
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Andrea: What about you Beck, what are your categories? What are they and it was it also trial and error that you did one of these and you were like I'm good. I'm going to keep doing this.
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Beck: I guess in a little way. Yeah, I'm a dancer in outside of ballroom also. And so I started with dancing and Old Way is a - it's a performance category AKA it's a dance you could argue. And so I came into ballroom via dancing and it was not my first category, but it's definitely the one that I was best at so I kept doing it. And Realness came way later so well, so Old Way is the first version of vogue. And I guess a lot of people who are outside of the ballroom scene, if they know about something, then they know about voguing. So I don't know if I have to explain that so much.
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Kate: I mean, we can yeah, talk a little bit about the origins of Paris is Burning in a bit. We're going to sort of get into the more media and pop culture side of it, yeah so we will explain that for the audience in a little bit.
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Beck: And then Realness, i walk Rransman Realness. And Realness is - it's the basically a category that started the whole ballroom scene because the ballroom scene started by trans women and drag and drags, right? Well, it's like, it's about passing. It's about passing as well as a trans man. It's about passing as a cis man. It's you just kind of walk up and you're like here I am! I look good.
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Beck: And then they're like you work, you pass, you look great. So I see it more as like a celebration of the trans community in ballroom scene in the ballroom scene, as if how it is now. Definitely yeah.
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Kate: I'm super curious about - you both mentioned your first balls. Where were they and how did you hear about them?
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Maji: Well my first ball was actually not the first that I walked. The first ball I was at was in LA actually in - it wasn't really - I mean it was a function but it also had waacking which is a dance style that kind of origined parallel to how the ballroom community kind of developed but like on the west coast instead. It was also on the east coast, but like yeah it was a different type of - it was different music and well in the beginning it was actually same. Just kidding. I mean it's like it's another dance style. It's not really a part of ballroom. So I was super into that at the time and then they had like some workshops and stuff in LA and I just like showed up to that and then they told me about this event that was a ball but also a waacking battle and that was my first experience with ballroom and yeah it just blew blew me away and then after that I went to New York and started looking for it in the clubs. And I went and started going to vogue nights. They used to be around midtown like Hells Kitchen.
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Maji: Yeah, I was just like a little club night where they had like balls but it's not like a big grand ball, it was like a little mock function where they have categories and people just like they don't have a specific dress code or anything? But it's just the people from the community there like celebrating and voguing and like having a great time. And I was just like in the corner, you know just super intimidated like so young as well. And just like soaking it all up and thinking that this was the coolest thing that I've ever seen in my entire life.
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Andrea: How about yourself?
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Beck: Well. I started voguing many years ago, before there was really a ballroom scene in Europe and the first time I ever went to any sort of - I don't even know what to call it, but any sort of situation where there was voguing was at StreetStar in Sweden, which is like a it's a street dance battle and they had they had voguing also, which looking back at it now seems super off, but it was very off - it wasn't a ball at all and they didn't do it on the on like the premise of a ball, but being like a little young queer in the in the hip hop dance community I was like yay! And then I moved to Paris in 2011 and there was like kind of like there was a little ballroom scene there growing, and I became a part of that so I can't honestly, I don't really know how to answer the question what was my first ball and where but there was a lot of smaller functions in paris and I definitely had the same feeling as Maji where it's like, going to New York for the first time in 2013 I think and going to the Latex Ball and being like OK this is what it is. I get it.
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Speaker 2: I'm super curious to hear about the different communities in New York and you mentioned LA as well and Paris and Stockholm. We have a question here about what differences or similarities you feel between maybe the European scene and the American scene. I think a lot of what we see in pop culture especially is centered around the New York ballroom scene especially from the seventies and eighties and nineties but I don't think there's a ton of representation outside of that just in pop culture and I'm curious if you can speak to that of what sort of cultures and communities have grown out of the European scene that might be similar or different to the US scene.
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Maji: Yeah I mean of course the US scene is going to be way more rich since that is where it was founded. Ballroom started in New York, so that is like the capital of ballroom, like the epicenter in the world.
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Speaker 2: But there's still like really major scenes in Europe, mainly in Paris and London and the Netherlands and Italy and stuff. There are a lot of like really big scenes and Asia as well. There's like a huge huge scene in like Japan and stuff. So I don't really know like what are the diff - it's it's and Russia.
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Beck: Russia is big.
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Maji: Russia exists.
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Andrea: I have so many questions.
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Beck: But I guess like one of the big differences is like that the scenes in Europe and Asia are super young. Like the first real ball that happened in Europe was in 2014 in Paris. And I mean there was a lot of like smaller functions and like practice balls and etc etc but the first one where it was like OK this is a real ball was in 2014 so it's very new.
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Beck: It was the Cleopatra Ball I think it was called was Lasandra and Steffi. And it was the first time Jack Mizrahi was there and yeah. I mean they had definitely been balls before but it wasn't like not of this kind of size and before that everybody was 007s like there were so few people in houses and then this ball was like OK everybody came out, new houses. So it was kind of like this is where it all happened.
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Beck: So yeah, we're very young, and I mean we're also very much based in what we have learned from the States. but then of course trying to like merge it into what does that mean in the European context? And it's so different from country to country also. Really depends on who started the scene in the countries. For instance. Yeah, for instance, like the Russian scene is like a very heterosexual and very white scene, whereas the Paris scene is super queer and super black. So it's like, yeah, it's so different.
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Maji: It's super different, so it also reflects on you know how the how the the queer identity in that country is and what is actually possible, you know, but it is. I mean I think we both experience like starting a scene as well from scratch. You know, like how do you do that? How do you curate it out to the people who actually need it in this space that we are in? And that's difficult. And of course you know, like. As Beck said, as as well it also reflects on who started it. 'cause if you you learn about ballroom as like a like cishet white dancer who just like go to New York to take some classes and stuff. And you read that you see this like amazing dance style on the timetable and you start taking some classes you want to bring it back home and start something you know. Then of course you know you're gonna have dance classes curated to dancers and you're not really gonna understand how to kind of target an audience that you know that might actually need this as like a community and not just as something fab to you know, learn. So yeah, there are definitely also communities that like reflect very much on that. But it's difficult. I think it's so difficult. And in Denmark we have some for example, we have some like problematics in in, in like in our like queer communities and like we have a lot of queer communities that actually are like really hidden and how do you, how do you make them come out? Not necessarily come out to the public 'cause that doesn't mean that they have to be out there and out and proud. And on the van and stuff and shouting 'cause that's not safe for everybody, you know. But how do you let people know, Hey, we have this safe space where you can actually come and be you. And then you can, you know go just to take a break from your you know like --
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Andrea: You have mentioned at different points 'cause I want to get to this. But you have mentioned at different points, small balls or practice balls, or things that are not real balls. s it the size? Is it how many people? Is it who comes, how many categories? So what's a real ball in comparison to like a, I'm just doing this for the weekend kind of thing.
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Maji: A real ball has to be kind of presented by somebody who's in a house. And there's a certain prestige to a real ball as well, like. You can't just walk random categories. You asked about our categories. For example, like I'm in the house Miyaki Mugler and I am a Sex Siren and Vogue Femme so I can't start walking other categories because I was -- That's when I'm out like at balls, I represent my entire house and their legacy so they know that I'm really really good at these things and I can't just like go out and do runway all of a sudden 'cause they're going to be like what the fuck are you doing? You're making us look crazy. You know what I mean? Except if I'm like really good at it, so like a major ball you kind of have your categories that you need to like - It's about bringing home the grand prizes you know. So it's strategic as fuck. But at the little balls, like for example the Kiki scene, which is a parallel scene to the ball scene or practice balls or something like that, you can kind of experiment and get better and like you know it's there's not so much pressure 'cause as we also just said that the ballroom scene is so huge and the houses are so international that it's like it's a big deal if you walk a ball and there's like a huge pressure on you as well. So it's just take a little bit of the pressure off. You can have like a little training ball.
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Beck: And I think like in Europe, what we have defined as like a major ball is that you have to have at least ten different categories but in New York, for instance, like that would that will always be the case, you know there was like at the major balls it will be 30 to 50 categories during a night. It takes many many hours. Well, most of the time you don't finish.
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Andrea: What does that mean though, because that means so like I'm ready, my outfit, I want to walk.
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Maji: You will be standing there all night.
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Beck: You just stand and wait.
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Andrea: And then I just go home?
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Beck: And then you go home and you cry into your salty popcorn.
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Maji: Sometimes you also traveled like across like the ocean to go there and go to this ball and you can't even.
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Beck: Then there's fights and people get upset and I get that. I mean, I remember once I went and I didn't even go that far. I went from New York to DC. And there was a ball. I had paid a ton of money for my effect AKA my outfit for the category I was walking 'cause I knew this was going to be a big ball and I think they had. I don't even remember, they had like 40 something categories that were supposed to come through go through. They went through 5. 'Cause everybody wanted to be that person at that ball and so and then like they had to shut it down 'cause you know they only had rented the venue until 3:00 AM or whatever and there was fights outside because everybody, everybody was pissed of course, including me. Pay for hotel and I didn't fight, but yeah.
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Andrea: Oh my God damn yeah so you're also saying that there's a prestige on these balls? It's kind of you become, the one that your house has sent to when these and walk these specific categories.
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Beck: But can I just say something like that? 'cause like I mean every house work in a different way and some houses are very strategic and like how they like they're like, OK, we have these five people that were going to send to this specific category, 'cause then we're going to win grand prize, and other houses are more loose and be like, OK, whatever you want if you want to walk, you can walk, you know. And it's not like strategic like that in that sense. But yeah, I just wanted to clear that up.
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Andrea: Yeah, and all the houses have in my head are Legendary, but let's say I'm from whatever house and I want to walk in a category. Do you, do you just go? Like when you get your invitation? Do you just tell them like I would like to walk in this category? How does that? How does that process go? Do you have to be in a house?
[00:32:05:00 - 00:32:43:10]
Maji: No you don't have to be in a house in order to walk you can walk us a 007 and then usually it goes like this. You walk the category you want to walk as a 007. Some houses see you if you're fab and you're slaying and they're like, you want to come to house practice and then they take you to house practice and they suck up to you and you kind of suck up to - I mean, it's a little like courtship, kinda vibe. And sometimes if you're really fab, a lot of houses show interest and then you just choose a house that you want to be in and then you are in that house for that category. And then you can also like ask your father, your mother. Can I also walk this? Let's see at practice you know how it goes. And you know, yeah?
[00:32:45:18 - 00:33:08:19]
Andrea: But OK then what about - I was going to say if I start a house today. I have no business starting no houses of anything but if someone, if you for example Beck wanted to start a house how does that process - how does it - would would it be the same that you would go to balls look at 007s AKA people that are not in houses walk and start building your team or how does that process work?
[00:33:09:09 - 00:34:53:01]
Beck: Well, I think it also again differs from house to house. I mean, as I was saying earlier houses are like families, right? And nowadays a lot of the Iconic or Legendary Houses that has been around since the 80s or even earlier, they are huge. Like you know, and international. And of course you cannot know everybody and be like Oh my God, you're my sister with everybody that you have never met, that they live in the other side of the world. But it is still like it is still like a family. It functions kind of like a family, right? And, but then also some other houses are still more family oriented than others so some houses - and I would say I would probably argue most houses they definitely go to balls to like yeah, snatch up 007s or even snatch from other people's houses mind you but there's also some houses and for instance in the Kiki scene in especially I would say more family oriented whereas more so like ok, we have - we have a special bond. We have a connection like you're my gay daughter or son or whatever and therefore you're in my house. Again, it differs from from house to house, but but I mean, yeah, so there's different ways of going about it, for sure, but of course talent is a major part of it, because you want your house to be recognized as the house you know with the most grand prizes.
[00:34:54:05 - 00:34:59:11]
Andrea: Who is the house with the most grand prizes? Is that a secret? It's like only you know, and you can't tell people?
[00:34:59:14 - 00:35:01:16]
Maji: Imean, there's not a house with the most grand prizes.
[00:35:04:00 - 00:35:04:18]
Beck: Probably don't know which one it was.
[00:35:04:19 - 00:35:10:15]
Maji: Probably but nobody 's keeping count, you know, but like people like each - if you ask every house, they're gonna say their houses.
[00:35:12:12 - 00:35:13:13]
Andrea: Grand prizes, I mean yeah.
[00:35:16:21 - 00:35:48:00]
Beck: But I mean like so in different areas of the world. There is awards balls, and that's where you kind of count but it's only per year. And so then there will be the New York Awards Bowl and then it's like the house in New York that is like the most fab that gets House of the Year and like then there's European awards ball or like Paris Awards ball etc etc etc so and like there, that was where you got.
[00:35:50:01 - 00:35:50:13]
Maji: I got European Princess.
[00:35:51:03 - 00:36:01:08]
Beck: Exactly, by the way just, you know, putting it out there again. So yeah, I mean, we do keep count, but it's like kind of like per year. Yeah.
[00:36:03:07 - 00:36:56:22]
Speaker 2: I would like to ask you a little bit more about the community aspect of the houses, because as you mentioned, it's about chosen family and finding the people that you want to be with in terms of this, yeah, familial bond. And I think especially in, for example, Paris Is Burning, we do see that that that is like you know, chosen family was a necessity because of the discrimination that these racialized people were going through in the 80s and 90s. Well, how how does that look today? It's still about chosen family, right? And but it does seem just from what I've seen in like, for example Legendary and more of the contemporary representations like there's a documentary called My House on Viceland. It is also about the prestige, so how does that fit in where, like, you know people are coming into these houses to be part of a family? And how does that work with this sort of prestige and the international aspect of it as well?
[00:36:58:00 - 00:36:59:07]
Andrea: And the poaching, yeah?
[00:37:00:04 - 00:37:00:12]
Beck: And the what?
[00:37:01:00 - 00:37:05:01]
Andrea: The poaching the like, the wanting to steal you from your family.
[00:37:06:09 - 00:38:51:14]
Maji: I mean, I think it's still necessary, I think there are still people that kind of suffer from discrimination and stuff like that, and there are still young lost people who need that chosen family. And I think even though it is very much about prestige, the house element in the protection of the young people is still being taken care of, which makes it so beautiful, you know. I mean. As I said earlier, it also very much differs from country to country 'cause it seems like no shade, some countries haven't really. Some countries haven't really understood, you know, or not understood, but they haven't really internalized that. That is actually the original purpose of having a community. A ballroom community. The original purpose is to protect into like like - I mean, it is also to like be fab and have that space, but it is a safe space. It is a safe space, you know. So I think that that agenda can still be pushed many places. But at the same time I do feel like the community in New York and in like Paris like two of the big the biggest cities I guess like and also like major cities in the US I feel like they're really good at also like protecting people and like taking people in for the community side. And you do have your siblings' back and you can always like go to your parents, your house parents, and like ask for advice or help or anything so it's - I feel like there is definitely a balance you know?
[00:38:52:04 - 00:40:04:20]
Andrea: I was reading an article that also, just. I'm assuming maybe this is more in the U S 'cause it was from New York, but I was reading an article in doing research for this interview and this episode and it was talking about how houses in the mainstream audience so you and I, Kate, in our eyes have changed. That now House is not like an actual house that you live in or like an actual group of people, but it's just like a dance group, right? But this article said that even though we are seeing countries that are becoming like more progressive or accepting, whatever words you want to put to that. There are so many things that affect queer people, such as housing prices and how houses like still take care of that. With, like the House parents and the House children to make sure that people have somewhere to live 'cause you can be out and proud. But if you don't have food, you're going to be out and proud hungry. So I just wanted to hear like, does that still happen that you live with your house, that it's not only about like oh, you can be queer here, but I like you can eat for example.
[00:40:05:00 - 00:41:25:13]
Beck: I mean, there's definitely that aspect of like, yeah, if you are. If you don't have a place to stay. If you don't have money then your house parents will provide for you and also as a house parent, you need to have that extra space and ability to do that. Yeah, I mean no, you don't live together, but if you are, if you don't have a place to live, of course come come crashing on my couch or whatever you know and yeah, definitely helping. Finding opportunities, finding jobs, finding a place to live, etc etc etc. Definitely a big part of it and also wanted to add like the whole mentorship aspect of it. I think is also super important because no, a lot of queer people today are not getting kicked out of their houses. Thank God. And some are still also. Let's remember that, but there's still a ton of things that our heterosexual cis parents do not understand and cannot guide us in. So there's also that part of it, right? Yeah, so I mean the whole family aspect. Still super important i would say.
[00:41:26:04 - 00:41:52:11]
Andrea: So how does that - now i'm thinking with - honestly, I could talk to the both of you for like a day but I'm trying to keep questions concise, so in these Legendary Houses like the House of Ninja that you were part of, Beck, and Miyaki Mugler that you're part of, Maji. 'Cause they're Legendary. They've been existing for so many years. How does the passing down of parenthood, fatherhood, motherhood, how does that work?
[00:41:54:16 - 00:42:56:21]
Maji: It kind of - I want to say it happens naturally, but of course there's a process and it's a whole thing when somebody comes out as a father or mother, it has to be like it has to be discussed with the elders or they're like grandfathers and stuff as well. And yeah, so it has to be kind of like passed on in a very formal way, yeah. Yeah, I mean, but there is also there also like in chapters for example like in the Danish chapter or the London chapter you know of of houses. There is also like a natural, some kind of like balance or dynamic that develops, you know, and then it makes sense that this person is always the one taking care of people who are asking about outfits or making sure everybody is looking good. And and then like they will talk to the American chapter and be like, hey, do you or do you want to be or I don't know? Yeah, I mean it goes like that. It is natural but there's also like a whole process.
[00:42:58:11 - 00:43:59:19]
Beck: I mean in the House of Ninja I used to be the Danish father of the Danish chapter and that was a - That was a very formal decision between me and Archie, which is the one of the founding members of the House, and is the overall father of the House, so he overseas all of the international chapters. So basically I was like I'm moving back to Denmark. I lived in New York for like, four or five years and and I was like I'm moving back to Denmark. And where do we go from here? Kind of so he came to Denmark and then like we talked about the people that I was feeling like I was close to and I could like bring into the chapter and etc etc. And then I came out as the Danish father. So it was yeah.
[00:44:00:05 - 00:44:05:20]
Andrea: What was that like? Well, what was it like to take on the responsibility of saying I am the father of a house.
[00:44:06:08 - 00:44:38:08]
Beck: It felt very natural to me, I think, but I think also because I mean, yeah, I definitely am the old oldest, not necessarily an age, but in experience in the scene in Denmark and I, because I have been part of starting the scene here like and I am a very responsible person I guess, and yeah, so I don't know. It's just natural to me. It's like taking care of all the kids and like everybody called me Dad anyway, so like let's go.
[00:44:40:22 - 00:44:41:13]
Maji: Such a dad.
[00:44:43:11 - 00:44:45:17]
Beck: It's it's a role that take on proudly you know?
[00:44:46:11 - 00:45:19:22]
Andrea: Yeah, I think the reason why I'm asking, I don't think we have to ask these questions anymore, as maybe more people know than they did before. There is sort of like a reclaiming of the history of ballroom and the history of vogue and how it came out of black and racialized Latinx queer poor sex workers. So I think our questions were more like, could you talk a little bit more about how those communities are still involved, but I guess you have, like by the mere existence that you are doing what you're doing, you have.
[00:45:20:24 - 00:46:21:16]
Beck: But like adding through that, I think like well now it. I mean, it's a it's audio this so you can't see, but I'm a white person and I mean I think that is like something that is also very important to think about and talk about what it means to be a white person in a community that is made for and by people of color and understanding that you are to some extent a guest in the scene. That you are not the one coming in and be like, well, I own everything and taking charge of everything and changing everything and like like OK like I'm going into the scene on the premises of the scene. And I am here as a guest and thank you for letting me be here, you know, and and I think like that is one of the things that is super important to remember from what you just said right? I was like where did it come from and how do we honor that today? Talking from my own perspective at least.
[00:46:23:02 - 00:46:30:18]
Kate: Yes, and that's actually a good segue to the elephant in the room, which is Paris Is Burning, but I feel like we have to talk about it. Because...
[00:46:31:00 - 00:46:33:05]
Speaker 2: I am the bearer of bad news.
[00:46:34:07 - 00:46:34:13]
Speaker 2: What happened?
[00:46:35:18 - 00:46:41:03]
Andrea: What happened is that you and I cannot control ourselves and we spoke to Beck and Maji for an hour and a half.
[00:46:41:21 - 00:46:41:21]
Andrea: It's true.
[00:46:42:12 - 00:46:50:20]
Andrea: Which means that we are just cutting this right at the edge, of maybe losing your concentration a little bit 'cause it's just. It's a lot of ballroom.
[00:46:51:23 - 00:47:05:15]
Kate: But I have the good news is that we're back next week with the rest of the interview with Beck and Maji, so we've got another full episode talking to them about ballroom. So come back next week and check it out.
[00:47:06:01 - 00:47:07:11]
Andrea: You get two for one. See ya.
[00:47:12:12 - 00:47:48:19]
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Maji Miyaki Mugler and Beck 007 for being our guests today. Actually since we recorded this podcast Beck has become the house father of the new Kiki House of McQueen so that's super exciting. This episode of MIX COPENHAGEN's Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet Podcast was presented by Andrea Coloma and Kate Krosschell. It was researched by Michael Trahan and produced with help from Ben Hanson-Hicks. Mixing and editing by Winther Robinson. Don't forget to like and follow Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We are releasing new episodes every week throughout the autumn.