EP02:
Let’s Talk Trans* Representation
Transcript EN
Kate [00:00:19] Welcome to episode two of Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet, The MIX COPENHAGEN Film Festival podcast.
Andrea [00:00:25] I'm Kate Krosschell and I'm Andrea Coloma.
Kate [00:00:28] Today, we are talking about the representation of transgender people in film and how trans people have fought for the right to tell their own stories. To help us do that, we have May Lifschitz in the studio to talk about her experience as a trans actor in the film industry and her career. So, Andrea, I want to hear about this open letter that was signed in 2018 by more than 45 advocacy organisations, talent agencies and production companies about the role of trans people in the film industry. Can you tell me more about that to open this episode?
Andrea [00:00:58] Yes, let's do it. So in 2018 and actually one of the actors that was leading this in the media at least was Laverne Cox. But as you just said, a lot of different production companies and agencies and stakeholders within the film industry were involved in this open letter. But yes, it was in 2018 and pretty much, quote unquote, pretty much this little thing that they were asking for - they were urging Hollywood to prioritise telling stories of transgender people and to involve transgender talent in the creative process. So it wasn't only about having transgender people playing transgender characters in film and TV, it was also about, you know, who does lights, who does casting, who does writing, who does directing. It was really thinking about like the entire process. And even if you told a story, you know, with checking all the lists, again, quote unquote, it was still about what kind of stories are you telling? Right. Are you doing like - is that trauma porn for cis consumption? And it was led by 5050by2020, which is a strategic initiative within Time's Up. And they advocate for the inclusion of women, people of colour and LGBTQ+ people.
Kate [00:02:14] Yeah. So, Time's Up was created as a sort of segment within the film industry, specifically tackling sexual harassment and sexual assault within the film industry. And then this was an offshoot of this open letter by this advocacy organisation.
Andrea [00:02:30] Correct. And then fast forward two years. Also, before we fast forward, I think it's also important to remember - we don't have time to go into it because we need to talk to May - but I think it's important to mention that we also have to go backwards and remember all the work that has been put by transgender people to get, I guess, to this moment in time. But yes, let's fast forward to 2020 and 'Disclosure' by Sam Feder premieres at the Sundance Film Festival. And just like 'The Celluloid Closet,' which is the film that has given us our name, 'Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet,' 'Disclosure' explores the depiction of transgender people in film going all the way back from the 20s and 30s where it's more coded and all the way to 'Pose' today, 'A Fantastic Woman,' 'Tangerine' and tons of other films that I think we're going to be getting into a little bit later.
Kate [00:03:25] Hmm. Yeah, it's a fantastic documentary, highly recommended to see it. I think we actually mentioned in our previous episode that it was really good. So, yeah, we're just like all about it. We can stop talking about 'Disclosure.' So, yeah, in the documentary, people like Laverne Cox and also Jen Richards dive into how award shows like the Oscars, and you know, in Hollywood, there's like this lauding or this sort of like putting cis people on a pedestal when they play trans characters, then they end up winning Oscars. They like transform their bodies, they transform their acting style. And it's just like. Huh, it really just serves to objectify trans people as not legitimate or othered.
Andrea [00:04:07] I think Jen Richards puts it really well, not only in the documentary, but if you check out a lot of - she used to have her own YouTube channel where she talked a lot about this. If you look at 'Dallas Buyers Club,' Jared Leto is, you know, pretending to play this female role, this trans female role, which is I mean, not completely a true story, but it's definitely based on a lot of transgender women that lost their lives to, you know, HIV/AIDS. That doesn't really get talked about. And what Jen Richards said is that people in their homes, at the cinema, see this film, connect to this character. And then when they watch the Oscars, they see Jared Leto in a suit.
Anne Hathaway [00:04:48] and the Oscar goes to Jared Leto.
Jen Richards [00:04:53] I do remember watching Jared Leto, you know, in his white tuxedo and a full beard. And it certainly was very clear to me in that moment that the world was seeing him as a man, despite Rayon having been portrayed quite beautifully and sensitively in the movie. And I realise that that's part of this larger narrative. The public thinks of trans women as men with really good hair and makeup and costume. And that's reinforced every time we see a man who's played a trans woman offscreen.
Kate [00:05:29] Yeah, I remember also when Felicity Huffman played - when she was in 'Transamerica.' Right. Like a lot of the critics were saying, like, wow, like it was like an amazing mindfuck, the way she was able to, like, embody that character because she is a woman. I don't think in those days, I think it was in 2005 that the movie came out, that they even used the word 'cis.' I don't think it was as part of the vernacular in the sort of Hollywood critics' circles to say, wow, this was a cis person, woman playing a trans woman who like, accentuated the quote unquote, masculinity of the character in order to reinforce the transness of the character, which was just like, why was that necessary?
Andrea [00:06:10] And then, like cis people would just get so lost in our bumblefuck of words that at the end of the day you're like, what? Yeah. What is it that you're trying to say about this film?
Kate [00:06:18] Yeah. But at the same time, Andrea, I want to just be a little bit careful because I identify as cis. So, you know, I can't completely say what the experience is of a trans person watching a movie like 'Transamerica' or 'The Dallas Buyers Club' or 'The Danish Girl,' because that's not my experience. And I don't want to, you know, put words in anyone's mouth. But like to me, it seems like Hollywood just likes to do this, like these mental gymnastics of like, let's bring in these cis actors to, like, impress us. And we're not really, like, actually representing trans stories.
Andrea [00:06:48] And bring in money. You know, I think it's definitely worth noting that in plenty an interview and plenty a documentary, including 'Disclosure,' we meet different trans people that talk about this movie very differently. Right. I mean, in many ways like and it's not comparable. But if you take parallels, like you also have some films in the - you know, cis, queer, cis gay, lesbian, bisexual. There's no bisexual films. That was an internal joke. It's gay and lesbian, let's get real. Within that sphere where films that I have watched later in my life, where I'm like that. No, thank you. Like, that's horrible. Like, that's just trauma porn, whatever. But then you meet other people and that's all that they had growing up to see themselves. I think the L Word is a fantastic experience. I mean, sorry, a fantastic example as to why that show got so popular.
Kate [00:07:39] Totally, we needed it.
Andrea [00:07:41] Thirst. OK. The lesbians, the bisexuals, the they/thems - thirst. It was thirst, you know, and I think that's fair enough. And I, you know, to each their own like we're already like - I call us the alphabet gang because of LGBTQ. So the alphabet gang is already experiencing way too much like trauma in our lives to like start pointing fingers. So I 100 percent agree. 'Disclosure' also goes into 'Boys Don't Cry' and how, even though traumatic the film was, it was the only thing that transmen had in Hollywood. So I think that's completely valid. Just thinking about our, the previous episode where we talk about going beyond the queer tragedy, and I think I also mentioned then that if you look into the cis part of the alphabet gang, there has been way more progress into what type of stories are told than if you look into the transgender side of the alphabet gang. Yeah, and when from what I gather from Disclosure, when we keep casting cis people, not only is it not genuine, but it can also turn into some violent storytelling. And let's not forget, Transparent, the TV show, where the main actor was named -
Kate [00:09:02] Jeffrey Tambor.
Andrea [00:09:03] Thank you so much, Kate. Always coming with the names. Where he accepted his award. He also won an Emmy. And he was all like, oh, my God, I should be the last cis person to ever get an award for playing a trans person. We are the worst, cis people are the ghetto. And then not so long later, it comes out that he's been sexually assaulting the transgender women in the set. And then they come out and it doesn't really get taken by this, like, Time's Up. Me Too. Because they're trans women. Right? There's actually a really good roundtable with transgender actors on YouTube that everyone should check out after they watch 'Disclosure.' So it also turns violent when we have cis people playing these roles. I mean, just go watch Disclosure, stop listening to us. No, listen to May's interview and then go watch Disclosure.
Kate [00:09:58] But before we get to her interview, I do want to talk about our boycott at MIX. This is my first year in MIX, so I don't have the full history of it.
Andrea [00:10:06] And we love her.
Kate [00:10:07] Thanks, I love you too. Can you tell me about how the boycott came about?
Andrea [00:10:12] Yes. And I think the first thing that I always say when I talk about this is that, so first of all, MIX is a majority cis organisation. I have been in MIX since 2017 and it has been like that and since then. But I don't want people to think that this was something that was pioneered by cis people in MIX, because that is not the truth. It was actually a a trans non-binary person. So they're the ones that actually started the conversation already in 2017. And if you look at our programme from 2017, we don't have any transgender films where the trans characters are played by cisgender people. Oh, but because we didn't call it a boycott, everybody left us alone. And then in 2018 we thought it was really important to bring that conversation up again, so then we made the decision in 2018 to do the same conversations that had already started the year previous, but this time it was an actual boycott. So it seeped into all of our work. So, for example, if someone was to submit a film to MIX, then they go through our submission form and it says explicitly, I mean, sometimes people don't care, but it has made people kind of like, look twice and contact us and maybe say like, OK, the, this and this is not transgender people, but like, these consultants, da da da.
Kate [00:11:41] And so you mean when people are actually submitting their film to MIX, they have to sort of like put in the submission that they have not cast cis people in trans roles and also that they have included trans representation behind the camera?
Andrea [00:11:57] No, we don't have trans representation behind the camera. We had specifically to not casting, says people in transgender roles in film or transgender characters in film.
Kate [00:12:10] And that actually brings us just to the final point before the interview, which is like what are some movies that either we've screened or that are just great films about trans people played by trans people that our audience can check out?
Andrea [00:12:24] Can I just. OK, so we have a list, but can I just quickly ask you, like, top of your head go, which one would you recommend?
Kate [00:12:32] 'Tangerine,' obviously.
Andrea [00:12:35] You took it!
Kate [00:12:36] Sorry. Yeah. I love 'Tangerine' because it's just like the pace of it is incredible. And it's famously shot on an iPhone. And it's about these trans sex workers in L.A. going about their day and the sort of like shenanigans that they get up to. But it doesn't sugarcoat the life of trans sex workers either. It's just like a really amazing snapshot of a day in the life. Highly recommended. What would you say?
Andrea [00:13:00] It's a fun Christmas film. I have to - and this is not, I was going this is not necessarily this is not at all a feature fiction, it's a documentary, but it has to be 'Bixa Travesty, Tranny Fag.'
Kate [00:13:17] I haven't seen it.
Andrea [00:13:18] When I tell you that you're missing out on your life. I watched it at the premiere, the world premiere at Berlinale, Berlin International Film Festival in 2019. I think that I watched it. And I remember, I think we maybe saw the first three minutes when it started. And the festival director at the time, we were watching it together. And I remember she turned around to look at me and at the same time we both went, this is the opening film. And It opened the festival. That was fantastic. The reason why I'm saying Tranny Fag, even though it's not a fiction, it's because it's a documentary. But Linn da Quebrada, who is a singer and an artist, Black trans woman from Brazil, she is highly involved in the production of the documentary. So a lot of the things are fictionalised and she talks a lot into like - they have this like fictional little like radio programme where she talks about, she has this entire, like monologue, where she says, like, oh, you little man, your little little smart man, you're stupid, but you, like, fooled us into thinking that you had any power over our bodies. and then she speaks right to camera and that entire monologue. So it's a documentary, but there are a lot of, like, fiction elements. I'm cheating, OK? And I'm trying to I'm trying to get away with the cheating, but I'm 100. I'm cheating. It's a documentary. But then the other one would be 'Alice Junior.'
Kate [00:14:46] Which we screened last year.
Andrea [00:14:48] And it's also Brazilian. Yeah. Because I'm also from like South America that I have most likely. But the reason why I love that so much - can I spoil it? Like I always look at you. If I can say, OK, it's it's a teen film. We also - it was part of our school film programme, so we screened it for a private Catholic school.
Kate [00:15:09] Nice.
Andrea [00:15:10] Yeah, but it's about a YouTuber, a young - I think she's like 16, 17 YouTuber. And she lives in the big city and her dad is going to move to like the middle of nowhere and she's taking her with him and all. She's just obsessed with her first kiss. She just wants to get her first kiss is her only mission in life. And yes, she experiences a lot of transphobia in her new school. But the film is very much for children, like for a young audience. So a lot of things are like exaggerated. So, for example, the evil principal looks like, you know, Dolores Umbrage from Harry Potter, like, you know, and it's filmed in that kind of way. It's adorable. But the plot twist, and I have to say it, is that she meets this boy. She's obsessed with this boy and she meets this girl.
Kate [00:15:57] Too many spoilers. We edited it out. Sad times.
Andrea [00:16:02] Oh, terrible.
Andrea [00:16:06] So I would say that's my cool. That's probably my go to.
Kate [00:16:10] I want to just do another last shout out for 'Rurangi.' A New Zealand film that was screened also last year, which is about a trans guy coming home to his family for the first time in a long time and sort of like making amends, right, with his estranged family. So gotta shout out to a trans man storyline as well.
Andrea [00:16:30] Yeah, it actually started as a Web series and then it was turned into a feature. And the entire cast and crew is trans as well.
Kate [00:16:38] Great, highly recommended. We have talked a lot. So let's go talk to May. Stay tuned for that.
Kate [00:16:50] Coming out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Checkpoint. At Checkpoint, we offer testing and counselling for STIs for young people aged 15 to 29, and LGBT+ persons of all ages. It's easy, fast and free. Checkpoint is an alternative to your GP or hospital clinics and can be found in Denmark's largest cities. At Checkpoint we are inclusive and we work norm-critically allowing us to focus on you and your needs. The link mitcheckpoint.dk/en is in English, allowing English-speaking folks a way to book a time for STIs. That link is mitcheckpoint.dk/en. Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Pan Idræt. Pan Idræt is a Rainbow organisation that focuses on creating a safe community through sports and activities. Many LGBTQ+ people have had negative experiences when playing sports, whether due to exclusion, bullying or homophobic locker room talk. Pan Idræt seeks to right this wrong. All people, no matter age, size, sexuality, gender identity and expression or skill level, are welcome to join for more than twenty five sports and activities. From traditional sports to social activities like board games, you are included. Check them all out at PanIdræt.dk.
Andrea [00:18:00] We are here today with May Lifschitz. My was born in the north of Argentina with a Danish mother and an Argentine father. She moved to Denmark at a young age and started her career in front of the camera, already at the age of 16 as a model. At the age of 19, she was scouted for her first role and started acting from then on. Hereafter followed various roles such as The Evil Witch, Chimera in the Danish fantasy film Wild Witch, or Vild Heks, guest-starring as Sofia in the comedy series Yes, No, Maybe.
May [00:18:34] Yay.
Andrea [00:18:35] We've also seen her as Vibeke Kruse in the historical feature drama Christian IV, den sidste rejse. And latest in 2021, as a Sabina in the comedy drama series Friheden. But you've also made it to the international scene. In 2020, you were in the international role of Chanel in Warrior Nun, which is a Netflix U.S. production, and later this year you will be airing in the Finnish drama TV series Next of Kin, which I am very excited to hear more about. And she has also just wrapped the Danish comedy series, The Orchestra. So you're busy is pretty much this long bio is telling me that you're busy because alongside of your acting career, you also still very much model. And you are doing some international brand campaigns. The latest, I believe, was Victoria's Secret. But you've also been involved with Tommy Hilfiger and Adidas and somehow you managed to find a time to come here today.
May [00:19:37] Oh, my God, of course!
Andrea [00:19:38] I'm very, very lucky.
May [00:19:41] It sounds super busy is not as busy as it sounds. It's in the span of a long time. Yes. And I'm also I also just graduated from my Masters in Modern Culture this summer. So at that to the list.
Andrea [00:19:54] You've been studying!
[00:19:55] I've been studying.
May [00:19:58] Exactly. So it's not that busy. So, yes. And during Corona, so there was a lot of extra time. So I was like, let me finish this master.
Andrea [00:20:06] Yeah, fair. Yes, fair. But then how did you start modelling and then move on to acting.
May [00:20:12] Well, so when I came to Denmark with my family, we came to a really small town in Jutland called Vejle, actually outside of that town. So growing up, my big brother was living in Amsterdam and started modelling and I just saw how he would get to travel a lot. So as soon as I was 14, I started scouting agencies. I was like, I need to get out of here. I need to get my golden ticket. Willy Wonka, where the hell are you? And so I just got it for agencies. And at 16, I was with my class. So I did get an agent in Hamburg and I was with my class in a study trip in New York. And so on that study trip, my agent got me a meeting with Steven Meisel, who shoots like all the huge campaigns. And my agent told me, well, you need to stay while your class goes home and you have a meeting. And I got to book a Lanvin campaign, which is like a French fashion house. And then I stayed and that's how it started happening. And I was like, finally I get to get somewhere else than this little shitty town.
Kate [00:21:17] So but still 14, 15. That's really impressive. Right. But I guess I guess that's when people kind of start modelling at around that age, right. I always forget the people are actually really young. Yeah. What was it like being a teenager in that industry?
May [00:21:32] It was fun. I was just like I was just ready to dip my my my toes in that pool and, well, dip everything, I just went for it and I was just immersed, you know, like fully and was just enjoying all the people that I was meeting and the diversity and, yeah. And just loved coming to New York and seeing how different people can be as a huge contrast to everything I grew up with, because I came from a small town in Argentina and I came to a small town in Denmark. So everything was just small and, and bland.
Andrea [00:21:59] And you wanted big.
[00:22:00] I wanted big. I wanted everything. Yeah.
Andrea [00:22:03] I myself used to work as a makeup artist, so I'm always interested when I talk to models. What's your favourite, like editorial shooting or catwalk?
May [00:22:13] I love shooting editorials. For me, like I think modelling as a whole just was important for me to get away. And I wasn't that passionate about the job itself. And that's why I when I when I came onto to work with film, like I was much more passionate about that because modelling for me was just, OK, I got to be somewhere. I get to travel, I get to meet people. So for me, it was just the thrill of having of meeting all these people and being on set. But yeah, mostly editorials I think we're fun because you got to play dress up and you were like the centre of attention. With a show you shared the attention with 30 other bitches. You know, like in the editorial you work for yourself mostly.
Kate [00:22:52] I would also be so scared of falling on the catwalk. Oh, my God. Like, I can't walk in heels anyway.
Andrea [00:22:56] Yes.
Kate [00:22:57] Yes, but it's very impressive that you can do that.
May [00:23:00] And the heels were always too small because I'm a size 42, European 42. So they would always shoes that were too small. So that was really annoying.
Andrea [00:23:08] But you do have the height for editorial and the face and everything else.
May [00:23:13] Oh, thank you.
Andrea [00:23:19] I think it's quite interesting to say, OK, so modelling was like your ticket to your Willy Wonka golden ticket to the chocolate factory. Right. But you saw that even though it was fun and it was definitely what you needed, it wasn't necessarily the passion of your life until you saw acting as a possibility to add on to your curriculum. Yeah. If so, to say. But how did that happen? How did you come into acting?
Andrea [00:23:48] So I came back from - so I was staying in New York. I was in London. I was staying in Berlin and I came home and didn't know what to do, and I started working as a makeup artist as well, so I was working for MAC in Copenhagen in 2014. And this amazing caster called, Anja Philip, who casts, like all the great stuff here in Denmark, she had to buy lipstick and her and her daughter. And then she turned around. She was like, wait, I'm looking for a mysterious, crazy witch lady for this film. And and then she I got to to work with her and she, like, really helped me in the beginning and, yeah. Guided me through acting.
Kate [00:24:29] But yes, we've been acting for about five, six years now and it's mostly international at the moment. But you've also worked in a lot of Danish films. Right. And we're curious about like your experiences just in those two different industries, just the kind of roles that you've been offered, like what's interested you about those kind of roles. And then we should we're definitely wanting to hear about, like, how you feel that trans stories have been represented in the roles that you've been offered or seen. How have things changed from your perspective?
Andrea [00:24:57] I mean, it started off so 2015, I guess, was when I started working and 14, 15. And since then, a lot of things have happened. You know, like the conversation is really widened and starting off. I feel like I got offered a lot of things that were super personal, super stereotypical, super patronising, and a lot of narratives that weren't really helping trans people. So what I always think about when people offer me something or when I get a breakdown for a self-tape or whatever like is I'm looking for originality. I'm looking for authenticity. Like how is this person's life being portrayed? Like because I think that I don't want to tell the story of the trans person who starts with one gender and then you go through the physical, you know, very objectifying narrative. And then you end up, you know, like there was this film called 'Girl,' for example, which was like about a ballerina that I saw. And the film was beautiful and it was great and everything like a beautifully directed, whatever produced and like great production. And but the story in itself, it wasn't like beneficial in any way. So for me, it's like I need to think about or I want to think about how does this contribute to how people are being perceived in society and not just is this an entertaining story?
Andrea [00:26:20] 'Girl' is from 2018 and is directed by Lukas Dhont, and it was, I believe, the Belgian entrance to the Oscars is about a promising teenage dancer ballerina enrolled at a prestigious ballet school while grappling with her gender dysphoria. And it's just when you mentioned it, and that is the film that people wanted to use when MIX decided to introduce the boycott. I mean, we don't screen films that cast cisgender people playing transgender people in film. And that was the year that film came out. And everybody and their mother, who did not watch the film, was accusing us of censoring the film even though the film was coming on Netflix, even though the film had already been shown three times on PIX and it was coming to the Oscars. And I just remember thinking like I love MIX. I think MIX is the best festival in the world. We're not big enough to be censoring anything. Like I wish!
May [00:27:20] It was a compliment.
Andrea [00:27:23] That you didn't watch the film, it's sounds like your fault. But that film has been running in Copenhagen for like at least two weeks. So it was just funny that you mention it because it really reminded me how everyone just became like the advocate of a film they had never watched or intended to.
May [00:27:38] I mean, those stories were important. Like for me, when I was like 14 or 15, I watched 'Transamerica,' which was really like groundbreaking for my transition as a person who never had stumbled upon a trans representation. But, um, but now it's 2021 or. I don't know, that was 2018, you know, like can Transamerica is 2001. So like we're evolving and the narrative needs to evolve too.
May [00:28:02] The roles also you get offered or maybe the roles that are coming now that weren't there before. Have you seen a change in that and is there a difference between maybe the U.S., American market versus Denmark, Europe market.
May [00:28:16] I definitely see a change. And um, so like when I started out so as you see, like for example, being casted as a witch, that is - and I love working with sci fi or with fantasy because it's like being able to create an otherworldly character that doesn't need to be defined by the binary or whatever. But from that and then being casted as I was casted as the office bitch in this like in this like Danish TV show like comedy in which it had nothing to do with my gender. So like in that sense and also being casted now for The Orchestra, which is a TV series coming on DR on this fall in which I'm the sexy girl that is being desired by the main character. And so this progression, I feel like is really important because I get to to be the object of desire and not just the otherworldly character or whatever. And I definitely see a difference in the American market versus the Danish as well. For example, when we did Warrior Nun hen they flew in like an HR from L.A. who like it, a respect meeting with the whole cast and crew. And like I've been talking about this as well before. And because I think which is really important because in Denmark we have this tendency to think that we are really open minded. We released porn in the 60s or whatever. So we don't need to have these conversations. Well, honey, we do. These conversations need to be reactualized and to be, you know, reinvented and and revisited in many ways because there are new "boller på suppen." There are new buns on the soup, it's a Danish expression, you know.
Kate [00:29:55] But yeah. And I've heard that Netflix has been lauded for their sort of approach to diversity, if you want to call it that. And sometimes I wonder if it's sort of the American dialogue behind how like, yeah, identity politics is like progressing. And some would say that in parts of the U.S., it's a lot more progressive than Denmark. Other places it's really not. And I'm curious like how Netflix sort of plays into that. And is it a money question? Do they have the money to hire a diversity or like a respect consultant? Right. I mean, the Danish film industry also has tons of money. So, like, why can't we be having these conversations that are funded? Do you have any reaction to that?
May [00:30:33] I think in Denmark, the whole question about quality comes into it a lot. So there's a whole -.
Andrea [00:30:40] Facts.
May [00:30:40] Yeah. So that is the way that they evaluate who gets the money and who doesn't is based by them on their quality principles. And the quality principles haven't been actualised because it's still the same cisgender people sitting on these posts giving out the money to the people wanting to write new stories. So I think it's just being a - you know, it's just repeating the same old, same old, because there's not new people coming to these power positions.
Kate [00:31:08] Right. Who's sitting at the table? Yeah, right.
May [00:31:10] Yeah. This question of quality also plays into it a lot.
Kate [00:31:13] I just feel like sometimes that phrasing is like cheap. Right, because they're saying, oh, it's quality, so we can't include people that don't look like us.
May [00:31:21] How do you define quality? Is quality being as Netflix does they see the money in that market, in the LGBT market or in the, you know, the diversity market in general? And, yeah, I guess the Danish people are a bit behind in that.
Kate [00:31:35] But there's also a reason why a lot of Danes just turn on Netflix at the end of the day. Right. And they watch foreign series because they're looking for something else. Yeah, not necessarily Danish productions.
May [00:31:43] Yeah. But I think it's coming. I hope so. I think yeah, I, I feel a difference at least from five, six years ago and I think that's it's going in the right direction. But there's still only I only know of myself as a transgender actress in this country or actor. Trans. Yeah. Actor in both male and female and non binary and, so where the hell are we like where's the rest of us.
Andrea [00:32:11] Yeah. Are very much lauded as the most famous transgender actress in Denmark. And like the only?
May [00:32:20] I mean, I mean I would love to know more like if anyone is out there listening and who wants to act like you're welcome to hit me up on Instagram. Like I will gladly give you a list of of casting directors that you can contact because like we need to be more.
Andrea [00:32:33] And I think there needs to be more in the entire chain of this massive industry. Right. Because yeah. Yeah. Even I've had conversations, you know, people approach us and they are planning a new film or a show or whatever, and they want our opinions because, yeah, we, we work with film all the time. And I always get this is like the one that I hear the most. I wonder if you hear it too. But this is what I hear the most. Or they're like we're looking for a trans person and we cannot find one. And I always ask, where are you looking? Because if you're looking in like the film school or the film school, like network or group, they're not there. Like if they were there, we wouldn't be in the situations, like they're not there. And then I'm like, OK, look into your entire crew. Is there anybody there that is not cis? No. Is there anybody that that's not straight? No. So obviously none of you are equipped to finding and you're looking at the wrong places. So when you tell me that, you know, you are not able to find someone because you think that you're just going to go outside and be like trans person and then they're just going to run to you. Yeah. And out themselves out of safety. And I completely run to you. And then and I think it does become this idea that, OK, if we just do this and then it's fixed and we don't think about the fact that there are tons of jobs behind the camera, I think they also need to be filled. Yes. By everybody. That is not the people that are already there.
May [00:34:12] Yeah the writers, you know, everyone and stage directors, or like cinematographer, everything. Like, you know, the director of photography is really important. Sometimes that is, you know, because they direct the camera, goddammit, you know, like so, you know, and that's what I thought about it. For example, with a film like Girl, the fixation of the body and which parts of the body were filmed. And there you could see that it was it was a straight person trying to translate what was interesting. And for them it was this. And for a trans person, it would have been completely different.
May [00:34:42] Yeah, you have like a plethora. And I very much think that that's on purpose. Right. You're trying to sort of show the plethora of characters and stories that you can do. So, for example, the office bitch, the sexy object of desire, a Chimera. What is it about like what conversations you have with your agents in terms of roles like what is it that they need to find or that you need to look for? You're like this. I want to try out for this.
May [00:35:11] I mean specifically when it's trans roles. I really ask for originality like I really want - so and I want also it to not be about transhood or transness, like we can do that. But then it needs to be like a really interesting take. And I've really applauded Euphoria. We all love Euphoria like the Jules character that was a lot about her transhood, but it was portrayed in such a beautiful and interesting way that I would have loved doing that as well. And I can, you know, like so so it just needs to be original somehow and it needs to be not focussing or objectifying and not stereotypical, and it needs to involve somehow the trans person themself. So for example, for Yes. No, Maybe which you also mentioned earlier. So that was sort of this dating show or whatever, like a person who was dating a new person every time or each episode. And so I was a big part of developing that, or it was actually inspired by my own life as well. And so I just think it's important to be included somehow if it's getting that personal. And yeah, if it's a story about a trans person, then could it be a story about love? It shouldn't be a story about losing your mother, could it be a story about something else and just being trans.
Andrea [00:36:21] Moving from a small town to the big city?
May [00:36:23] Yeah. Oh, my God. I would love.
Andrea [00:36:26] In the making. Coming soon to theatres 2022.
May [00:36:39] I understand, you know, so unless you want a trans script or you don't want to play into the films that you don't want to watch, but just in general, like this sex bomb kitten and I don't know, I haven't seen it, but it sounds like everybody is just like salivating after you. What was it about that that you were like, yes?
May [00:36:59] The Orchestra which is coming out. So that's because I got to play the cello. I was a cellist in an orchestra. So for me, it was just like the I also just look for adventure. I look for fun. I'm living life. I also want to get paid. I also want to make money, honey. So like I'm for sale - I'm not for sale - I'm not that much for sale, like I won't sell out on my - I got to discount on my values, but I don't sell them out. No, I'm just no, I'll stick to my values and those are not for sale. But so with my agent we talk a lot about: does this harm you or does this harm your message in any way? And if it doesn't and if it pays well, then why not? Yeah. So yeah, I was yeah. For example, with Victoria's Secret because that didn't pay well because they were motherfuckers with that. But, but, so I was like does this hurt my image even though because they had been out speaking about, you know, that they never wanted trans models for example. So I also had to think, okay, do I want to be represented by a brand who said that they were never cast a trans person? And I was like, you know, I don't care what they've said because I'm going to use this platform and that's not going to hurt my image. I'm going to use that platform to say whatever I want to say. So so, yeah, that's the main question. Like, does this hurt my message or so? Yeah, there's definitely a lot of other things that I guess this cis people don't have to think about when they go into things as an actor.
Kate [00:38:20] Yeah. Do you feel like you're under pressure because of your sort of like your image or your persona?
May [00:38:25] No, I think it's a good challenge. I think, like, I have the possibility of of like lurking and changing some some structures that I don't agree with. So I think it's it's a gift in many ways. It can be tough. Like it's a lot of things that I do think how would this be? But but yeah, I think it's if I get to change something or if I get to help in that process.
Kate [00:38:54] Yeah, I think like it also as people in MIX, we feel like we have a responsibility and we get super excited about helping change the narrative because like we have an audience that is also so diverse, like we go beyond the Danish borders and we are pulling in films from all over the world. And it's just like really exciting to be able to exemplify all of the stories that are out there in film and media. Right. And like you said, like choosing originality. That's also on our side. We we look for that, too.
May [00:39:22] And you see with that boycott, which impacted had you know, so, yeah.
May [00:39:26] When the boycott came out, you were interviewed by a newspaper. Were you, did they look for you or did you look for them.
May [00:39:38] Oh honey, no I don't look for press.
Andrea [00:39:42] So they found you.
May [00:39:43] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I definitely supported that. So I thought it was really important message. So I really wanted to, to, to help spread that.
Andrea [00:39:51] I can just tell you what it was like on our side to be - our all of our social media was in the hot flames of hell. It's just a nightmare to the point that we were and I was part of the communication team that year to the point that we were like, should we save them? So like, you know, you get a shift like an hour shift at like eight p.m. and you're just like plough through and then you just forget it for the next day. And then the next person that comes in there and we were being invited by all these, you know, were being interviewed by all these people. And I think you can agree with me as someone that has to sit with media a lot. They want to get you. It's like it becomes like a fight. I'm I'm not good at boxing. Why are we fighting? And then finally, we wake up to this article with also someone from the industry. Right. This is not like some random person that writes an op-ed or whatever, someone from the industry that's like, yes. And we're all like, finally we can breathe least for like two hours you were going to let us breathe. And that was pretty cool. Yeah.
May [00:41:00] Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to to just make a hall whenever you can, honey. And if people listen then just go for it. Yeah.
Andrea [00:41:08] I remember reading an article - so before Warrior and came out it was, you know, the promos were starting and people were posting. And then I found that David Hayter, which is the co-writer and co producer of Warrior Nun, he tweeted that he had had a conversation with you where you said that this is the first script, at least at the time that you came across where the character being trans wasn't problematised. And that that's what kind of caught your eye.
May [00:41:40] I never had that conversation with him, so I don't know where he gets that from. He's an awesome writer, but I don't know him personally. I never had a conversation with him prior to that. But he's sort of like tweeted that. And I was like, OK, whatever. If I was going to get to some people, I mean, that's great if you think that I don't mind it or whatever. But prior to that, I've you know, I did a witch character that was not problematised my transhood, so I don't know where he got that from. But but yeah, that's fine. I don't mind it.
Andrea [00:42:10] What attracted you to Warrior Nun?
May [00:42:12] Netflix?
Andrea [00:42:13] Yeah, I was about to say yeah.
May [00:42:16] So it was definitely like I just always wanted to as soon as I started acting like I would much rather act for an international audience.
Alba in Warrior Nun [00:42:27] "My problem was that I never had the chance to pick up my own clothes, have my own style. Discover who I really am. This probably makes no sense to you.
May as Chanel [00:42:43] No, actually, it took me a while to figure out who I was too.
Alba in Warrior Nun [00:42:50] So how do you do it? How do you choose who you are?
May as Chanel [00:42:57] The key is to remember that the clothes don't define you. You define your image for the world.
May [00:43:07] Yeah, I don't know. It was just it was also a great story, and I loved that she was trans without being about her transhood. So I guess in that sense, he's sort of right because it was the first character where she where they were casting a trans person and she had to be trans, but it wasn't about her transhood in any way. So I guess that way he's sort of right.
Andrea [00:43:27] He was right. But you never said it to him. Yeah. So maybe he reads minds and we don't know.
May [00:43:31] Yeah, maybe. I mean, maybe psychic or something.
Andrea [00:43:33] Yeah. I don't know David. I got no idea what he does.
May [00:43:37] No he's he's awesome. Like he's a really awesome writer and, and whatnot.
Andrea [00:43:42] How was it to be part of like a huge Netflix, shot in Spain. I remember you being Spain. I was like, yes.
May [00:43:48] What is she up to?
Andrea [00:43:49] I was like these buildings look Spanish.
May [00:43:53] So we were staying in Malaga and we were like, you know, ten young people just having fun and getting to know each other in the month of preproduction and and fittings and table reads and all that. And so we just had a bunch of fun together and it was really awesome. And being on set coming, you know, and there's just a whole, you know, city of trailers that just came in overnight and like, it was just huge.
Kate [00:44:19] It just like took over the city.
May [00:44:20] Yes, pretty much. So it was just wonderful to watch that many people co creating something and. And, yeah.
Andrea [00:44:28] How long was the shoot?
Andrea [00:44:29] Well, they shot from I guess it was April till September, but I was there from April till, the end of, no the beginning of June or something, yeah,
Kate [00:44:42] Did you have a chance to sort of like form the character while you were on set? Was there any chance for improv or just like, you know, giving your input to the script on how you wanted to act your character?
May [00:44:51] I mean, when you play a minor role, I don't have that that sense of authority. Of course, I got to do my input in how I, you know, play with words or I can, you know, change up a little bit. But no, you you sort of stick with the script, but you give it your intonation. You give it your character. I did a whole lot of pre work where I sort of made my own background story for Chanel and where she was going and where she had been. And, you know, all these things that you didn't get to see. But no, you stick with the script, honey, with that big of a set, you don't want to fuck up things.
Kate [00:45:23] No, but what I love about your character, too, is the nuance that you bring to it. Like you are like you said a supporting role, but like you are your own character. Like you get the depth of Chanel in just like a very short time, like immediately when we see you, it's like this girl has some, you know, some history. We want to know more. Yeah. So, yeah. Just hats off to you. I thought it was great.
Andrea [00:45:42] And I don't know if you know this, but according to the Internet you are or your character is a Warrior Nun favourite.
May [00:45:51] Yes. So what happened was after the show came out, I think I don't know how they did.
Andrea [00:45:56] I mean, you are to probably I'm just saying that is very much based on your character.
Andrea [00:46:00] No, no, no. It's Chanel, honey. It's not May, it's Chanel and and I love that, you know, when this show came out. So IMDB sort of has this star metre and how much they Google people and the week that Warrior Nun or the week after Warrior Nun came out, Alba obviously was number one and I was number 12. And the rest of the characters, they were further down. So I think people really were into finding out who Chanel was. And so so that way I sort of entered all this like fan fiction and fan everything that that got to happen. And the fans are really awesome. Like the Warrior Nun fans like are super cute and like, remind me to stay hydrated and have all these conversations on Twitter and like and they just. Yes. And they did a whole fan magazine of fan zine now and like they're super awesome. So like I tap in whenever I get the chance to.
Andrea [00:46:50] Have you ever read any of the fan fiction?
May [00:46:52] Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, there's the magazine now, so. Yeah, yeah. It's really awesome. And they draw and like all kinds. Yeah. They're really talented.
Kate [00:47:02] And that just shows that we have communities that are really supportive and you know, media can bring us together. I always believe that. Yeah. Maybe I'm just like a softy at heart, but I think the media can change the world.
May [00:47:12] It is awesome. No, it can obviously. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Yeah I agree.
Andrea [00:47:17] I just think. Yeah, it just reminded me of that. When you said hats off to you, I was like, yes. And also you're not the only one, Kate. There's like a bunch of people that are in love with.
May [00:47:29] That's sweet, thank you.
Andrea [00:47:31] So the we've spoken about The Orchestra where you said you're playing the cello. You used to play the cello.
May [00:47:37] No, no, no, no. I had to learn.
Andrea [00:47:38] You just you wanted to challenge yourself. How was that?
May [00:47:42] So I had a really awesome Ariana, a Spanish girl who taught me and who guided me, but I didn't know how to play the cello. I could I could fake how to look like I was playing the cello because the cello, honey, that is a whole chapter for itself.
Kate [00:48:00] It's heavy, right?.
May [00:48:02] It's huge and it's hard. And there's both the hand and the vibrato and the string. There's a left hand and the right hand, you know, like all kinds of hands. And you all got to do shit together like it's work.
Andrea [00:48:15] You're like, this this huge. I'm definitely going to act it out. Yeah, but thank you for the class.
May [00:48:19] Yeah. But it was fun. I loved it. I love any challenge.
Andrea [00:48:23] But I want to hear as much as you can tell us about the Finnish drama, Next of Kin. You went to Finland.
May [00:48:30] Yes. So Next of Kin is this sci fi drama about taking place in like ten years from now. We're like near future and how mutations or how DNA modifications are sort of having an impact on humanity. So we're three experiments, siblings that got made in the lab and they tried to eradicate cancer in the human body. So we're three experiments who sort of, because of this, got some sort of like special powers. And we're trying to find our lost sister and trying to find which kind of experiment will sort of help us heal because we still have some damage that we need to to get under control.
Kate [00:49:16] Is it in Finnish?
May [00:49:18] It's in Finnish. And my character - so my character is Danish. We are four Danish actors because two of the experiments get hidden in Denmark because it's a Danish scientist.
Kate [00:49:27] Because we're creepy Denmark.
May [00:49:30] Yes. And it's a Danish scientist that takes us here. And yeah. So we speak Danish and English because we get to go to Finland.
Andrea [00:49:39] OK, I have so many questions. First of all, my first question, when does it come out and where?
May [00:49:43] It comes out in January 2022, or at least that was the the plan? I don't know. I don't you know, as an actor, you don't get that many updates. Like, you just, you just wait it out. And it's the Finnish Viaplay so it might get to the Danish Viaplay. I have no idea of what they're doing with distribution. And actually, yes, they will have an American channel called A&E Network, which I, I don't know that much about.
Andrea [00:50:12] OK, I know the network.
May [00:50:13] OK, good. OK, and maybe some more. I don't know.
Kate [00:50:17] They distribute Married at First Sight, which is also just one of my total guilty pleasures.
May [00:50:22] Oh my God. I love that. So it's like a reality TV.
Kate [00:50:26] Some of it. Yeah. But very much like. Yeah. Like personal stories. Like personal interest.
Andrea [00:50:31] and now creepy. I don't know why I am imagining super creepy in this series. Yeah. But I was just about to say and creepy experiment children from the future.
May [00:50:39] I mean she's badass. So my character's name is Simone and she like rides a motorbike and she's badass and she sneaks into places and tries to get the answers out of people. And yeah, it's a really intricate storyline, but yeah, I'm really excited to see it.
Andrea [00:50:52] Definitely not what I was expecting, especially after just talking about The Orchestra. Mhm. Yeah. I'm really excited to see that. It better come to Denmark. I have no idea who listens to this, but if someone has any sort of pull anywhere please get me that, thank you.
May [00:51:07] I'm hoping - I guess it well, I'm thinking it will.
Kate [00:51:10] Do you ever miss characters when something is wrapped like you feel yourself like kind of like holding on to that part of the identity of the character that you've inhabited?
May [00:51:19] I mean, I'm always ready for the next. But Chanel I loved. Chanel was awesome. Chanel was the person that I would love to be full time and the wardrobe that I would love to have full time. And yeah, she was she was really cute. And yeah, I don't really hold on to things like that. I think it's I just love stepping into the next things.
Andrea [00:51:41] Would you ever do like, like a multiple seasons character.
May [00:51:45] I would love to be a series regular guy. That is not up to me. Like yeah of course. Like I'm going for that lead, like that's what you want to work for as an actor and and yeah. So I'm just, we're just going to see what happens. You just never know. Like in history from one day to the next, like casting is the last thing that happens. And I don't I don't know if a lot of people know that in in a process of production of producing a film.
Andrea [00:52:09] No, I don't think people do.
May [00:52:10] It's always like you get that call, at least it might be something else for like the the main characters. But like, you always get that call like a week or two before you have to go, like it's always last minute. So so. Yeah. So you never know. So I'm just ready and. Yeah. Just waiting around.
Kate [00:52:28] Well fingers crossed. Yeah. The next big huge thing coming your way.
Andrea [00:52:32] I don't, I don't know if you've given much thought to this but you know modelling, acting, I mean you're still very much establishing like quite a repertoire. But do you see yourself dipping your toe in other parts of the industry or another industry for that matter?
May [00:52:47] Well, I did just finished my master's in Modern Culture and I would love - so I would love to to curate art exhibitions. And I will try and see. It's really hard, but I will try and apply for a Ph.D. at some point. And and there's a programme in which you get money both to work and you get money to to make your own exhibition. Um, so for me, if I would work in that field, I would love to do some curatorial activism. So how to how to create a space through art in which you sort of change some structures that maybe people get to to take with them home after they've visited your show?
Kate [00:53:25] Was that part of your modern culture master's degree like learning how to create spaces that can bring certain members of an audience or members of the public in and make them feel welcome?
May [00:53:36] Yeah, we so I had a class called Curatorship and/or Curating. And through that I definitely worked with that. And I think through everything I did because modern culture in KU is very much like a critical study and and yeah. So I think it was with me in everything I did and my Masters was about the bust that was thrown into the the ocean and the reaction that came from that. And so, so yeah, I just generally think how to how do you erupt something or how do you shift a paradigm.
Kate [00:54:09] Yeah. Got any answers for us? How do I do that.
May [00:54:12] That's, that's a whole other discussion. We'll do that in the next podcast.
Kate [00:54:17] We can get some Cliffnotes.
May [00:54:18] Yes. I wish I had a good answer for that. And a short one too. Yeah.
Kate [00:54:23] No but I'm excited to see. Yes I'm excited to see where.
May [00:54:27] Where life takes me. Yes. Me too.
Andrea [00:54:30] You create great art. So I think you could curate great art as well. It's gonna be May, I mean, every time I write you, I'm like, it's gonna be May.
May [00:54:44] Thank you, guys for having me.
Andrea [00:54:45] Thank you for coming.
Kate [00:54:54] This episode of Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet, the MIX COPENHAGEN Film Festival podcast, was presented by Andrea Coloma and Kate Krosschell. It was edited and mixed by Winther Robinson. Follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen so that you can get new episodes every week right when they're released. And go find this year's film programme for the festival on mixcopenhagen.dk or in your favourite cinema or cafe here in Copenhagen. The festival runs from October 22nd to 31st, 2021 in Empire Bio and Cinemateket. And do you have thoughts about this episode? Send us an email to communication@mixcopenhagen.dk or record and send us a voice memo telling us what you think. And don't forget to join us next week when we'll be talking about representations of mental health and queer women. Talk to you then.