EP01:
Beyond Queer Tragedy
Transcript EN
Andrea [00:00:18] Welcome to season two of Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet, a podcast by MIX COPENHAGEN LGBTQ+ Film Festival.
Kate [00:00:25] We are two hosts who absolutely cannot contain our love for queer film. We have a bunch of new episodes in this season 2, and we're going to go deep into common themes about the LGBTQ+ community and in cinema. And then we're even going to talk to a ton of experts about queering the silver screen. It's going to be awesome. I'm Kate Krosschell.
Andrea [00:00:45] And I'm Andrea Coloma.
Kate [00:00:52] So to start us off in this episode, you're going to get to know us, Andrea and Kate, and hear about how we are framing this season of the podcast around going beyond queer tragedy. So, Andrea, who are you? Tell me a little about you.
Andrea [00:01:07] I asked myself this every day, who am I? My name is Andrea and I'm the festival director for MIX COPENHAGEN. And I have been with the festival for, I think it's five years. I always get a bit hesitant. I always forget,
Kate [00:01:20] It's like all your life.
Andrea [00:01:23] Exactly, all my adult life. Yeah, but at least, minimum, I've been here for five years. Yeah. And what brought me here, I think films are the shit. I think queer films are the shit. And even though we do have a festival with tons of events that I think dissect queer themes within cinema, but also queer cinema is its own genre. And I think that's great. I just thought that a podcast was a great idea to sort of bring it to a broader audience. And yeah, gave us another format to play with. Why are you here?
Kate [00:01:59] Yeah, I agree. I came to MIX - this is my first with MIX. I'm American and I've lived in Copenhagen for five years. And one of the first experiences I had in the queer community when I first moved here was coming to MIX. And now, five years later, I am super excited to be a part of the volunteering committee and just - I studied film and I also worked in podcasting in a previous iteration of my life. So it's just like combining all of my loves.
Andrea [00:02:26] Everything is like coming together. Yeah, right? It's cute.
Kate [00:02:30] Film studies. Podcasting. I'm gay. No, I'm actually bisexual. Let's make that clear. Yeah. And I'm just really excited to talk about queer film because I just talk about it all the time with my friends anyway. And now it's just another way to just dissect the things that I'm already thinking about and hopefully bring those thoughts to a larger audience. And that said, we can't wait to hear your feedback about this podcast. So if you have comments, questions, requests. You can call us. You can send us a voice memo. We love when people send voice memos so you can record yourself on your phone and send us an email to contact@mixcopenhagen.dk and we will listen to you and maybe feature you on air.
Andrea [00:03:11] That's so cute.
Kate [00:03:11] But before we get to the next section, let's hear from our sponsors. Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Checkpoint. At Checkpoint, we offer testing and counselling for sties for young people aged 15 to 29 and LGBT+ persons of all ages. It's easy, fast, free. Checkpoint is an alternative to your GP or hospital clinics and can be found in Denmark's largest cities. At Checkpoint, we are inclusive and we work norm-critically, allowing us to focus on you and your needs. The link mitcheckpoint.dk/en is in English, allowing English-speaking folks away to book a time for STIs. Again link is mitcheckpoint.dk/en. Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet is supported by Pan Idræt. Pan Idræt is a Rainbow organisation that focuses on creating a safe community through sports and activities. Many LGBTQ+ people have had negative experiences when playing sports, whether due to exclusion, bullying or homophobic locker room talk. Pan Idræt seeks to right this wrong. All people, no matter age, size, sexuality, gender identity and expression or skill level, are welcome to join for more than 25 sports and activities. From traditional sports to social activities like board games, You Are Included. Check them all out at PanIdræt.dk.
Andrea [00:04:24] I think a good way to sort of start this framing that we want to do with the podcast, I think our name - some people sometimes don't understand the name of the podcast, which I personally find very sad because that means that people have not watched this film. But yes. So there is a film called The Celluloid Closet. Correct. Have you watched it, Kate? I assume you've watched it.
Kate [00:04:48] I saw it when I was in like eighth grade, actually, we had it was - coming from a very, like left-wing liberal town in the U.S. We had a day called To Be Glad Day, which we like featuring all these different media sources about that it's OK to be queer. I mean, granted, I was like 12 and I had no idea that I was queer at the time. But I just remember looking forward to this day so much every year.
Andrea [00:05:14] I wonder why?
Kate [00:05:14] I know, Right? Hindsight is 20/20. But they showed this film at that day. And I was yeah, I remember being 12, 13 and just like being blown away by all of this stuff is existing under my nose. And like all those subtle cues that happen in film that I kind of picked up on and sort of I'm sure that it got embedded in my body thinking about like queer coding and film really made an impact on me.
Lily Tomlin [00:05:40] Hollywood, that great maker of myths taught straight people what to think about gay people. And gay people, what to think about themselves. No one escaped its influence.
Andrea [00:05:54] Yes. So The Celluloid Closet is from 1995, making it part of the New Queer Cinema Movement. And it's a documentary surveying various Hollywood screen depictions of homosexuals and lesbians and the attitudes behind them throughout the history of North American film. A very based on the U.S. and I love this. One of the stars is, of course, Lily Tomlin. Love her. And I think maybe if we were to do a comparison: Disclosure, which does the same, but for exclusively the depictions of trans people, that's sort of the vibe. That's sort of what you can expect from The Celluloid Closet.
Andrea [00:06:36] So the name, Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet, is because this film focuses - I think it goes back, correct me if I'm wrong, it goes back to depictions of the 1930s. I think that's the earliest, maybe like late 20s, but it definitely starts in the 1930s. And how that has changed, if it has changed, And it's a '95 documentary. So you can only expect - I think, I think - we all know what - there is not a lot of nuance and also not a lot of opportunity. There's little in mainstream sort of depictions. And if we were to compare where we are, not even in 2021, just even like if you look at the 2010s and how they've developed compared to '95, we are definitely coming out of the closet. So it was this film does a beautiful job in depicting what it was and what this closet looked like and we're now seeing queer cinema coming out of that closet, not that it closets don't still exist, and we also get into that in this podcast about maybe some normative storytelling that we still see within queer film. But we definitely wanted to say, OK, we have a documented past in a way. So what can we look into the present and does it inform the future of cinema.
Kate [00:08:07] But yeah, so to move kind of on to the framing, like Andrea mentioned, of moving beyond Queer Tragedy, we wanted to talk about this topic a little bit because I think it's something that as queers, we sort of like get inundated by this theme of just like queer tragedy and film. And it can take a toll on us. But we're constantly seeking like other stories and other types of representation that the mainstream doesn't necessarily like, want to give us because of certain factors. So on that note, Andrea, like what do you think about this? Why do you think there is an emphasis on tragedy in queer cinema?
Andrea [00:08:44] That we're obsessed with tragedy because it makes for good film? Um, I think, I think it's a very hard question to, no it's not a hard question to answer, but maybe it has a long answer. I think if we completely just start with understanding the concept that tragedy sells and that tragic stories - it's people's, it's people's catnip, right, people eat them up. So if we just take that as like the truth and then we move into: OK for there to be tragedy, then someone has to suffer or someone has to be - something or someone has to be the cause of suffering. There's some sort of negative that has to happen. And then you look into queerness and how that has always, even into this day been a negative thing. And then you can either use the queerness or the queer person as the person causing tragedy for others. Here, I'm thinking portrayals of paedophilia that have always been mixed up with homosexuality. I'm thinking anything that comes close, the queer villain trope. And so that's the actual queer person being the reason for a tragedy to happen. But then we also love to see them suffer for being queer. Right. Their quote unquote choice has led them to that path. And then I think films have moved to the extent of saying, OK, queerness, not a choice, but there's still the element of tragedy. And I think it sort of boils down to this idea that: queer people live and move in the world, in a world that's homophobic and trans phobic and queer phobic and thus tragedy is to be expected to the point that if you watch a film that doesn't have, or maybe doesn't like follow those tropes, then you start hearing conversations of how realistic such a film was. So I think tragedy is very normal. I mean, I think it has been there for the dawn of time. Shakespeare would not have had a career if a tragedy wasn't something that sold.
Kate [00:11:04] Right, because like you could say, that misery and tragedy is kind of like an appealing storytelling form anyway, right? It's like comedy and tragedy. There are two types of narratives. Right. But for us it's a the particular like loaded gun.
Andrea [00:11:17] Yeah, but I think it's because when you then you have something that just sells really well and something that is quote unquote, because I also don't want to insult the films that use tragedy because they can be really great films. But I'm just saying you have a recipe for success, let's put it like that. Right. And I think if you then want to - if you want to tell the story of a marriage that falls apart and that ended up being tragic, that's fine.
Kate [00:11:44] That's completely fine. Revolutionary Road is a great movie. Yeah.
Andrea [00:11:47] God, I love that film. But then if you mix that with an oppressed identity. Right, that's where we run into trouble because then that becomes the only thing that gets portrayed. Right. Whereas marriages can get portrayed in a hundred thousand billion ways. And I think we can we can see this in cinema, not only for queer people we're talking about, but by BIPOCs, racialized people, black people, people with disabilities. That becomes: Life of oppression equals a life that ends in tragedy and that needs to be in film. And anything that doesn't have that becomes not realistic for some reason.
Kate [00:12:25] Well, right. I mean, when we are talking about producing this series, that podcast series, we have this running joke that we should like shit on 'Love, Simon' for every episode which we didn't end up doing. But that's a film that's, like, made for a very mainstream, like audience that is like appealing to straight people because it's sort of like it, like sanitises a gay coming out story in a way that's not tragic, but it's still sort of like it's a bummer because it's not really feeling like it's real to us. Not to say that you can't have a great rom com that's super positive, that's queer focussed. But yeah, there are questions about authenticity sometimes because I don't want to negate that, like, being queer can be really hard, you know. But, you know, I don't want to, like, sugarcoat it and say that, like, those stories shouldn't be represented, but because we do face oppression in the world. But it's just nice to have a more broad palette of films that we can consume that's reflecting our lives.
Andrea [00:13:23] And that's where, you know, everything that's sort of the source of the problem, that we don't have a pool of films to choose from then. And you have the one. Right. So you think: the teenage coming out stories are 'Boys Don't Cry' and 'Love, Simon.' Like those are the two that we have and...such extremes and it opens the debate of, should like right? Then that's the debate of like, what is a happy - first of all, what does a happy ending? Should we get more happy endings? Are happy endings, just like a film where a lesbian doesn't die. Is that enough? Is that not tragic? Should we not make tragic films anymore?
Kate [00:14:06] Right. Yeah. I mean, I want to also just like point out that Andrea and I are about the same age we like grew up in the 90s and have a certain reference point for the types of queer films that we grew up with. It might inform like how we see stories being told. But it's true that probably more films are being made nowadays that have a wider depiction that maybe, you know, you say like 'Boys Don't Cry' and 'Love, Simon' are the two vantage points. But that like that's just our experience. Like, you know, like seeing 'Boys Don't Cry' when I was, what, 14 or something, I was like, fuck.
Andrea [00:14:38] I watched still quite recently, actually, for the first time. Really? Yeah. Which is quite recently. But when I was watching Disclosure, there was one of the men being interviewed. He's a Black trans man. And then he said that he watched 'Boys Don't Cry' and there was a whole section talking about 'Boys Don't Cry' in 'Disclosure.' Right. And he then mentioned that after watching the film, the one with Hilary Swank, he then proceeded to watch a documentary about what happened. And in the documentary, he found out that Brandon had his girlfriend played by Chloe Sevigny, but that he also had a best friend who was black and who was also murdered.
Kate [00:15:23] Oh, my God, they completely whitewashed that?
Andrea [00:15:24] They completely removed him from the narrative.
Tiq Milan [00:15:29] There was a Black man there who got killed. Who was like his buddy, who was a friend and ally to him, and that guy was completely erased from the film and that changed the film for me. You know, so because it's this is the erasure of of Black people, so it's like you can't have, like, queer trans people and Blacks in the same space at the same time. So what does say about my queer trans Black arse? Again, this is taking away representation that telling me that I can't exist in my Blackness and my queerness and my transness. I can't bring all of this in at the same time.
Andrea [00:16:06] But I think in terms of talking about like beyond the tragedy, I don't think the conversation is, should we get rid of tragedy, I think the conversation is, should tragedy be the driving force of the film? So is this film making me fall in love with this character just because they're going to die of whatever or they're going to have a miserable life. Or is, you know, tragedy just part of our lives? Like everybody, right? Everybody suffers some sort of tragedy and then we can talk about degrees, but it's there. I think those are the discussions. In terms of 'Love, Simon,' we're also veering into a whole different territory of whether or not rom coms should exist. I hate them.
Kate [00:16:52] I've watched every gay rom com on Netflix like late at night. I'm like, oh, man, I'm missing some gay content and put on like, 'Alex Strangelove,' which is like this stupid rom com.
Andrea [00:17:00] You know, the the poster looks kind of the same as 'Love, Simon,' doesn't it?
Kate [00:17:03] Yes, it's the same story basically, except like he doesn't know he's queer until, like, halfway through.
Kate [00:17:13] But maybe we actually should discuss some of the different tropes just that we get our like grounding in tragic films. We are going to bring it up over the course of the season, some of these tropes. So the major ones off the top of my head I can think of are conversion movies like 'The Miseducation of Cameron Post,' which, to be fair, amazing movie I really loved. And Desiree Akhavan, she is amazing. 'I Am Michael,' that like James Franco experiment in I don't even know, it's about a man who is like part of the ex-gay conversion movement and he like was in San Francisco in the 90s and was like out and proud and was running a gay magazine. And then this is based on a real guy too. And then he had a sort of religious awakening and then became an ex-gay preacher. So James Franco made and starred in this movie about his story. And I'm just like, I'm not about it.
Andrea [00:18:05] There's also 'Boy Erased,' also based on a true story with Nicole Kidman. Yeah, conversion films haven't gone away. And these are, all these three titles are from the U.S.. Right. But we also have, like we've screened films at the festival from around the world that still focus on conversion therapy, correct? Yeah.
Kate [00:18:30] Yeah. And then another big trope also comes up a lot in TV in addition to film is Bury Your Gays, which is like you kind of hinted at it, but it takes it to an extreme where a character is like brought through a whole sort of narrative storyline only to be killed at the end. And this happens a lot in series. I remember there was actually a whole Twitter protest around 2016 against Kill Your Gays after actually I think she was a bisexual character that got killed on The 100.
Andrea [00:19:00] Yes. So that was very specifically to lesbian and bisexual or queer womxn characters. So very specific to that community because they - after they killed Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, after that, they just started dropping like flies show after show after show. Mm hmm. Yeah. So after that character is killed in The 100, they were like, we're done.
Kate [00:19:29] Yeah, but that's not it, I mean, that's not where it starts either. Like you've got 'Philadelphia,' you've got like the tragic AIDS story. You have 'Milk,' which again, based on a real story. So it's not like we're minimising the fact that this actually happened. But, you know, the whole, like, growth of the sort of gay panic defence storyline. And then I'm also thinking about something like Sudden Death Gay Syndrome in 'A Single Man.' I don't know if you've seen 'A Single Man' with Colin Firth?
Andrea [00:19:56] Yeah, by Tom Ford.
Kate [00:19:58] Yeah, exactly. Where Colin Firth plays a closeted older gay man who falls in love with a younger guy. And it's like the whole movie is just like so cinematically beautiful. And it's like it's clear that a fashion designer directed it because it's just beautiful. And then he dies alone by himself for like kind of no reason. Like what. Why? Apart from the title. Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah.
Andrea [00:20:23] But I think. I think I mean, I think it still happens, yeah, yeah, we are referencing some like older titles, but. I think still the films that make it to, like a broader audience still carry. I'm thinking 'The Danish Girl,' for example. Just so unnecessarily tragic.
Kate [00:20:51] Right, especially when her life wasn't like that. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. Do you want to tell the story about Lili Elbe for those who might not have heard it?
Andrea [00:20:58] For those who might not know, Lili Elbe, and that's also our award for Best Documentary, Best Feature Film and Best Short Film is named after Lili Elbe. Lili Elbe was a Danish transwoman who was also an artist. And she was one of the first transwomen, well, the first Danish transwoman at least to get gender affirmation surgery, I believe it was in Germany, probably in Berlin.
Kate [00:21:26] Around 1919 or 20 around there?
Andrea [00:21:28] Yeah, yeah. And then she had a wife and, um, yeah, they lived their best gay life and they were artists and they were travelling, and having fabulous - she was fabulous. Living the 20s life before the crash, just like Great Gatsby-ing around Paris, Berlin and Copenhagen. And then 'The Danish Girl' takes this approach of first of all, I mean, we are now diving into the entire thing of cis men or just people playing trans people -
Kate [00:22:06] Which we have a whole episode about.
Andrea [00:22:10] Yes. So there's there's that. And then there's also the actual portrayal of Lili Elbe, which minimises womanhood to a dress. Right. It's like Lili was just living her life. And then just one day, she grabbed one of her wife's dresses and was like, oh my God, I'm a woman. Very much how the film portrayed it. Then there's that one thing and then the other thing is that it was just extremely sad. They were all they were sad all the time. It was like. Everything was just painful and brutal and like everything was so sad.
Kate [00:22:50] Also because, like most of the focus, the narrative focus is sort of empathising that you do as a viewer is with the wife. Yeah, it's not even with Lili, which is like it clearly is sort of like cis view or like lens that has been, you know, that the director wanted to take. Mm hmm. But yeah. So a lot of those tropes I mean, let's name one more and then let's go on to the like other types of stories that we want we want to focus on in this season. Substance abuse and suicide is also another trope. Yeah. And probably more in like queer cinema, gay cinema of the 90s, like a lot of stories about mental health and substance abuse from like lesbian stories in the 90s, like, uh, 'Girl Interrupted,' for example, 'Gia', 'Keep The Lights On' even, which was in like 2010, I think. 'Prayers for Bobby,' ugh. I have never seen it, but I've heard that it's like devastating. So I don't think I'm going to watch it.
Andrea [00:23:54] No, I have never watched. I thought it was hilarious how you described it.
Kate [00:24:01] Yeah, but let's let's talk about, like, what it means to go beyond queer tragedy like, do we want happy endings, like what even is a happy ending and how should we interpret these kind of narratives, like maybe we're taught by straight movies to expect a certain ending, but do they have to live up to those standards or what can we hope for from queer film?
Andrea [00:24:29] I think it's also I think it's and yeah, and this comes again and again with me, you'll see the following episodes that I feel like sometimes we focus, when we talk about queer film, other types of films as well, but like queer film for the sake of this podcast, we focus a lot on what they represent and what they not represent and they're happy or not happy endings. And sometimes I wish we spoke more about the actual artistry of queer film as a genre and and the innovation that comes with films, with queer films. But that being said, OK, so what can we expect? I think that I personally, as a consumer and lover of queer film, I expect them to push, I expect them to... And maybe is this sort of naive nostalgia for New Queer Cinema champs like Gregg Araki, for example, or Cheryl Dunye, that I want these - Not necessarily bizarre, I wouldn't call Cheryl Dunye's films necessarily bizarre, but, you know, these films of people in the fringes that push and maybe, you know, I hate the word thought provoking, but, yeah. Thought provoking or push an artistic style, and then to me, the ending, whether it's happy or not, is kind of irrelevant. And I think to sort of ground this to maybe a more recent example of this would be 'Moonlight.'.
Chiron from Moonlight [00:26:12] "What's a faggot?"
Juan from Moonlight [00:26:20] A faggot is a word used to make gay people feel bad.
Chiron from Moonlight [00:26:32] Am I a faggot?
Juan from Moonlight [00:26:35] No. You could be gay, but, you gonna let nobody call you a faggot.
Andrea [00:26:41] 'Moonlight' doesn't spend its time worrying about a happy or a sad ending. I don't even think you can call that an ending. I don't think you can even call 'Moonlight' like a portrayal of a life. Like we were invited into three very individual chapters of this man.
Kate [00:26:56] It's a triptych, right? Yeah.
Andrea [00:26:58] Um, and by not caring about a happy or an ending at all by not sort of you know, they're not building a character up to kill him or building a character up to give him a you know, they're just telling a story and inviting us into very, three distinctive times in this man's life. By doing that, they can focus on everything that makes a film great from acting, from the casting, from the cinematography, from the music, from sound, soundtrack, all of that and deliver a masterpiece, like a piece, a piece of art, and I think that's what I would like to see more of. A portrayal of a life or, whatever it is, and maybe sometimes we don't have to, like, focus so much on the ending, happier or not.
Kate [00:27:52] Yeah, that was super well-said. Amazing. I don't think I can follow that up.
Andrea [00:27:58] But I'm trying to think, I guess I want to do a little exercise and close my eyes and be like, what is the latest? OK, it's that. Come on. Saoirse Ronan, Kate Winslet.
Kate [00:28:08] Oh, 'Ammonite.' But at the same time -
Andrea [00:28:16] Sorry, how did that end?
Kate [00:28:17] She like - again, this is going to be a spoiler, but you should see it. It's a great film. They don't end up together.
Andrea [00:28:25] Because she doesn't want to, because she's like, you're controlling my life.
Kate [00:28:29] Yeah. Even though they had amazing sex and a great sex scene. So good. But I remember Mihaela saying about this movie - She's one of the other festival programmers on the volunteer team with us that like, can we stop having period dramas about lesbians where everything is like covert and under wraps because it's in the past, like, can we just have a non-problematised lesbian relationship that has drama in itself? Yeah, and not just have to be like, oh, they're sneaking around behind their husbands' backs. I totally agree with Mihaela on that. But like it's like those seem safe to be produced and that's also what the mainstream is starting to want more of. I just thought that there's another film that's coming out. I forget what it's called.
Andrea [00:29:09] We have OK, just in the top of my head, we have 'The World to Come,' which premiered at Sundance this year. Then we have, the beautiful masterpiece - let's put a pin on that and come back to that, 'A Portrait of a Lady on Fire.' I mean, pure drama or not, Céline Sciamma is a genius. Then we have 'Ammonite.' And there's probably more - there's 'Carmilla,' there's done a couple of Carmilla films, but just like the latest one is 'The World to Come', 'Ammonite' and 'Portrait of a Lady on Fire, 'Portrait of a Lady on Fire' being the strongest film. Yeah, I will debate anyone on this.
Kate [00:29:45] Oh, that's great. Those looks.
Andrea [00:29:47] And that's a tragic ending.
Kate [00:29:49] That's true.
Andrea [00:29:50] Yes. A tragic ending.
Kate [00:29:51] And I'll still watch that any day. Yes. Yeah. I also could talk for hours but I'm not going to but I'd like to drop it in there that I think the female gaze in that movie - Gaze not Gays - with the female gaze is masterful because you can tell that there are women behind the camera and in front of it.
Andrea [00:30:10] Are you thinking of the armpit fingering scene?
Kate [00:30:16] And the looks, that they give each other just like this is how I flirt, you know, I don't know how to do it otherwise.
Andrea [00:30:23] I just like intensely someone to just hope they like it back at me as intensely as I am looking at them, because if not, it's inappropriate. But I kind of want to do want to go back. If I feel like I'm kind of pushing the happy ending discussion to the side to be like 'It's irrelevant' because personally I think it is. However, I do understand that it's not. I think sometimes I can get very film snotty and forget that film, and the reason why we talk about representation so much is because film is a very powerful learning tool, right? Schools use it. We ourselves, we have school screenings for different ages so that the teachers can use our films as part of their teaching programme. And I mean, I wasn't one of those queers, but I know a lot of queer people that the second they could start downloading things, they downloaded everything. The only reason The L Word did so well was because there was nothing else, right?
Kate [00:31:19] Yeah. You're talking to someone who would like sneak down to the basement and, like, rent it at late at night and hope my parents didn't see it.
Andrea [00:31:27] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, so happy endings matter. Right. And 'Når Støvet Har Lagt Sig.'
Kate [00:31:36] Yeah. 'When The Dust Has Settled?' Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea [00:31:38] Is that the one about the terror, there's a terrorist attack in Copenhagen? I think so. I haven't seen it but there is a - spoiler - this lesbian couple where one of them died of cancer and I was part of a panel debate last year. It was the Nordic Ministry Collaboration, they wanted to do a panel about the representation of LGBTQI+ youth in Danish and Nordic TV and film. And I remember someone in the audience raised their hand because they could say comments or questions and someone in the audience raised their hand. And they talked about this film and they're like (the series, sorry). And they were like, I just feel like every single time I see a film about lesbians, someone dies either because they're gay or in this case, because she has cancer. Why do they keep dying? So so I think that's like I don't want to put it to the side because I do think happy endings are important. And I think there's a reason why the conversations are there. People need them.
Andrea [00:32:42] I don't remember one, but some many years ago, MIX had a short, a very, very small programme of maybe two or three films that showed the queer character not dying.
Kate [00:32:56] And it was only two or three films?
Andrea [00:32:58] Two or three films in the entire programme,
Kate [00:33:00] Even for a queer film festival that has been going on for 36 years. Damn.
Andrea [00:33:05] Yeah. And it still happens, unfortunately, today. And I think now we have maybe the Bury Your Gays has been maybe less death, but there's still a lot of trauma.
Kate [00:33:17] Yeah. And like shunting characters to the side when they're no longer useful, maybe they don't die, but they just don't get the storyline they deserve. Yeah.
Andrea [00:33:24] And we get a little bit into this into one of our episodes. But I also think another reason why we don't see a lot of happy endings is because if we just look at films in general, happy endings are in rom coms. Rom coms love the happy endings. Right. And anything for like young adults, anything from, like, the 'Love, Simon' sort of crew loves happy endings, even if it's dark it has to have a happy ending. Right. And then we're talking to like a young, or like a romance, like romantic comedies or anything, romance, anything comedy has to have a happy ending and then we're maybe veering into like a young audience and mixing anything queer with anything young has been the forever battle of many because being queer is seen as something adult or something like children shouldn't watch this or that.
Kate [00:34:24] Because it's corrupting their minds or something.
Andrea [00:34:26] Yeah, exactly like queerness or anything that has to do with sexuality or gender, that is not part of the norm. Right. So any queerness then is put into this adult category, which quickly gets into, like, dirty, perverse. Right. And then heathens. And there's no space for happiness in that. So the question, do we need happy endings, I don't need them. I think some need them, I think. If cinema as a whole has a place for happy endings, then I think that just by that mere fact, then queer film also needs happy endings. But how do you feel about them?
Kate [00:35:11] Yeah, I mean, I think your point about, like catering towards young audiences is a really good one, because if you had talked to me 10 years ago when I was coming out, I would have said, like, I can't handle any more of these tragic stories. Right. I need something to reflect that I'm going to be OK, especially as bisexual person, I think and I'm sure this is the case for a lot of us in the community that, like you have these feelings that you can't quite, like, identify because you haven't seen them reflected in the media. And like media is a huge tool for people, I believe, to, like, educate themselves for better or for worse. Right. And like you said, you know, The L Word was an educative tool, educational tool for me, even though it was like I am not a lipstick lesbian with a ton of money in L.A. like but I'm still like learning a little bit about the community. I actually remember, like, the first episode or one of the second or something. Shane is like trying to decode whether someone around in the community is gay and she like looks at her fingernails and she's like, telltale sign. And I was like, why? Did not even compute. But like, that is something I still remember 15 years later, because it's like, oh, now I get it. And I feel like I'm a part of things because I know they're like, you know, the codes. So in that sense, I think happy endings as a framing device help me sometimes come into the story and feel like like I'm part of a community that matters. Yeah. And sometimes I just don't want to watch something depressing. Yeah, exactly. Right.
Andrea [00:36:46] And like, I mean, I always want to depressing things. That's the problem. Never get recommendations for me if like to be happy because apparently I'm against the entire concept, like good yin and yang for this topic, Happy Endings.
Kate [00:36:58] You're deep and I'm like...
Andrea [00:37:02] Kate's pretty deep. I just think that I'm dead inside and it's my problem. Like 'Beanpole.' If you didn't catch Beanpole, too bad for you. That film is epic, but it's a really hard Russian film.
Kate [00:37:16] Yeah, I haven't seen it.
Andrea [00:37:17] Think of all the trigger warnings that this poor woman goes through. Okay. And I recommend to everyone. I loved it. And I remember I was outside Empire when we were coming out of the cinema. A couple of my friends are there and they just looked at me like, I'm not talking to you for the next month. This was a horrible - my friends were like, I feel empty. I don't even - there's no tears in me because I feel empty. That film took everything I had and I was like, OK, I don't love that.
Kate [00:37:43] Yeah, yeah. But I want to like I'd like a movie like, for example, 'Tangerine' is a movie that - that's like what I want out of a queer film because it deals with really tough stuff. It deals with like, you know, being a sex worker and being trans and like being unhoused. And there are a lot of like, really rough stuff in the movie, but it's hilarious at the same time. And it like, doesn't problematise sex work or transness in a way that's like just destined for straight audiences to be able to point at trans people and be like, yeah, but like, you know, you can have - there's space for a lot, like you said, sort of like just a masterpiece can consist of like moments in life that are depicted on film. Why can't we mix the genres, you know, like why can it be tragic but also comic and like
Andrea [00:38:35] like I think 'Rafiki.' You haven't seen it?
Kate [00:38:41] Stop this interview right now!
Andrea [00:38:43] Screw this entire podcast! Wasn't it...It was the first Kenyan film in Cannes.
Kate [00:38:51] I think so. Wasn't it banned in Kenya, too?
Andrea [00:38:54] Yes, and then she won the - they won - so 'Rafiki' by Wanuri Kahiu is a 2018 film and it was the first Kenyan film to premiere at Cannes. The film depicts - it's a coming of age, and it depicts this young romance between these two young girls in Nairobi. Adorable. It was banned in Kenya, but the filmmakers fought it and they won. So they were actually allowed to screen the film for seven days in national theatres in Kenya, which is pretty awesome.
Kate [00:39:31] That's awesome. I didn't know that.
Andrea [00:39:32] Yeah, but I think - I think it was because, like, yeah, the government just had to be like it's like it's not a bad film so they had to screen it. Yeah, but they won. It was amazing. But Rafiki is - it's a coming of age film. It's they're both adorable, both actresses. The romance between them is really cute. It's a - it's a coming of age. It's, you know, everything that people love from coming of age stories, but, you know, they also have to deal with some pretty hefty stuff from like, you know, just like local politics because of what their parents do and to, you know, that they have to hide and, religion and all of this, as you said, that's just like that's depicting a life, it's not a tragic life, it's not a super happy life. It's just it's - I think, you know, we should expect from queer films, you know? I don't know if you feel like this, but when people ask me, how are you? And I'm like, I'm fine. And then in my head, I'm like, I don't even know how to answer this question. Not bad. Not on the verge of a mental breakdown. But I'm not you know, I didn't win the lottery either.
Kate [00:40:42] You mean like that we should have space to be able to explore how we actually feel. Yeah. You want that in film, too? Yeah.
Andrea [00:40:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like films need to answer the question of how are you? And you know, that could be a day that could be year, that could be - hopefully keep it to an hour and a half. Yeah. Long films sometimes do not have to be that long.
Kate [00:41:03] Need an editor.
Andrea [00:41:04] I think this is also why I really enjoy genre film. Right. Like sci fi, horror, horror, anything gory, blood, thriller. That's where you find me, because the premise of that film is for tragedy to happen and it promises nothing to you and that just gives you complete freedom to do whatever the heck you want.
Kate [00:41:27] Yeah, that's totally right. Horror. Yeah, I am kind of a wimp so I kind of shy away from horror. But don't we have a queer horror programme this year at MIX?
Andrea [00:41:40] Yes, we do. I can't tell you the films because I have no idea when this episode is coming out.
Kate [00:41:46] I need to stay tuned.
Andrea [00:41:49] They're amazing.
Kate [00:41:51] I think this is a good transition to talking like very quickly. We named some of - we hinted at some of the episodes that we're going to be doing. But let's give you a rundown of what you can expect from our episodes and then please come to MIX. MIX is on October 22nd to 31st of this year, 2021. And we are at Empire Bio and the Cinematheque and we will be all around ready to talk to you. I hope you have, you know, lots of things to say about the podcast, but. Yeah. So what can you expect? What are the episodes that we are excited about? Want to start us off?
Andrea [00:42:29] Let me just jump in quickly and say that after the festival in the Cinematheque and Empire Bio, we are going online for two weeks and you can find us all over Denmark. So catch us online as well if you can not make it to the physical festival. But I know that it is like an easy one to be excited for, and I'm sorry that I'm going first. I'm taking it from you. It's the Ballroom episode. Of course, that has to be the best episode ever made.
Kate [00:42:58] I literally just got chills I got about how good this episode is. Yeah.
Andrea [00:43:03] Yeah. You asked. I was like, I know it's so easy, but it's also true. So what about you? What are you looking forward to?
Kate [00:43:09] I'm super excited about our queer porn episode. Yeah. We have amazing guests for all of our episodes that just shed so much light on the industry and films and their perspective on their work, too. We have a lot of great artists that we are talking to, so definitely. Yeah, the queer porn episode. I'm also super jazzed about our animation episode and yeah, also a discussion of queer women's mental health representation. Oh man, I can just name all of them. Just keep going.
Andrea [00:43:40] I was also like, you're just naming all of our episodes. I mean I'm also excited for all of them. Don't get me wrong. I'm also excited that we are back. You know, we launched in 2019 and we're back. 2020 did not bring us down. We're back. So I'm also very excited to sort of share this and get some feedback and see where this little baby grows.
Kate [00:44:03] Yeah. And if you have ideas for future seasons, we also want to hear from you. So again, you can just email us that contact@mixcopenhagen.dk.
Andrea [00:44:10] Yeah, and the last thing that you could expect is that our episodes are in English and Danish, depending on the interviews with the guests are in English and Danish, depending on what language they are comfortable in. And as you can probably hear now, we're more comfortable in English, but we are willing to come out of our comfort zones for the sake of queer cinema and its many, many themes.
Kate [00:44:34] Yeah. So let's leave it at that. Yeah. And stay tuned. And thanks so much.
Andrea [00:44:40] Bye bye. See in the dark.
Kate [00:44:59] This episode of the MIX COPENHAGEN Podcast, Coming Out of the Celluloid Closet was presented by your hosts, Andrea Coloma and Kate Krosschell. It was mixed and edited by Winther Robinson with editorial help from Ben Hansen-Hicks. If you're listening to this, I hope you know that our programme for this year's festival is live on mixcopenhagen.dk, and the printed programme can be found in cinemas and cafes all over Copenhagen. And don't forget to follow us on your podcast app of choice so that you can be notified of new episodes as soon as they come out. We are releasing new ones every week up to and throughout the festival. But you can already hear episode two in your feed now! It's about trans representation. Go listen now.